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View Full Version : Counterfeit Montecristo GR's and Cohiba 1966's...



monkey66
21-11-2012, 02:36 PM
I am copying this info (with permission) from ICC forum and Mk05 (original poster) in the general interest of the community. I will not copy the entire thread and will remove actual suppliers (to keep within our rules). Please pm me if you want to know more. I will update the thread as the discussion develops there.

The Monte GR's came from a Spanish on-line supplier with a famous (in the cigar world) director. The current opinion is that they have mixed up real and fake boxes to show legitimacy (an old trick).
NB - this debate is not concluded but too important to not mention. Please read and draw your own opinions.




Counterfeit MGR box cover is stacked on top, authentic Altadis bottom (or authentic is the top of picture and counterfeit is on bottom of picture). Notice the differences in size of the logo by the quarters, and the fleur de lis.
11159

Counterfeit MGR seal stacked on top, authentic EMS on bottom (or authentic is to the left of picture and counterfeit is to the right of the picture). Notice the hologram on counterfeit is longer, and does not sport the cut angled edges.
11156

Detail on counterfeit hologram.
11154

Detail on EMS hologram
11155

MGR from festival
11153

Counterfeit MGR on left, festival MGR on right. This is the headshot. First thing first, the MGRs being rolled in the Upmann factory had very high quality control. The cigars were all to sport pointed tips. No biased roll to the left or right, nor rounded tips. Any deviation from that specific quality control should give away a counterfeit nature. Now notice the bands. The color is off. The fleur de lis is clearly wrong. The concentric circles do not have the indentation.
11157

Counterfeit MGR on left, festival MGR on right. This is the side shot. We can now see the waves are farther apart on the counterfeit band. The secondary band's font is chunkier than the authentic example.
11158

Additional comments 11.19.12:
- What was troubling was that MGRs are known for their very distinctive wrapper hue and quality. They have a very bright, yet a little reddish tint. The MGR wrapper (IMO) varies greatly from any known M2 wrapper. These counterfeits mostly had the wrapper down to the T.
- Tips were all varying in the counterfeits; mostly rounded, but some had a lean to the left or right - albeit sporting the pointed tip. A couple boxes I received almost looked decent enough to pass, but the taper was off. The cone started tightening in too quickly.
- The 6 counterfeit boxes were all over #4500.
- Inner velvet sleeve looked and felt exactly the same, good stitching inside, no differences.
- Box codes on bottom were the exact same as authentic compared to H&F EMS, Altadis, Italian EMS, PCC. SUB OCT/NOV11


Additional comments 11.21.12:
- Although I have not yet seen a squared off hologram on the warranty seal in my own stock, Trevor's site seems to indicate the existence of such a seal: http://cubancigarwebsite.com/common_...w-lg_click.jpg
- The counterfeit MGR warranty seals match the one on CCW
- All 6 boxes of counterfeit MGR sported unique warranty codes, and scanned in with HSA as genuine stock
- Assumption: code entered in HSA site is vlookuped in HSA database, it is not a what the code generates on HSA page and returns on refresh
- Therefore: this must be high level reproduction operation that was done in Cuba


- Supplier claimed to have bought out the rest of Altadis MGRs in Spain, giving him a monopoly in the commodity
- Suplier has a store in Salamanca dropship MGRs instead of sending from his warehouse
- Once caught, Supplier replaces counterfeit with intact, sealed Altadis authentic MGRs from his warehouse
- Why does one send stock from another vendor when he has his own?
- I must conclude this was done with intent

monkey66
21-11-2012, 02:39 PM
Real box of 1966 on top and fake box of 1966 on the bottom. Notice hologram width as well as how the real box of 1966's have straight edge corners on the seal and the fake box has more rounded corners on the seal.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Starbuckpga/2012-11-19_20-41-50_735.jpg

Box on left is real, lighter in color. Box on the right is the fake box. The paint fill for the face and lettering is darker on the real box as well.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Starbuckpga/2012-11-19_20-42-50_520.jpg

The top 1966 box is real as you can see by the square edge corners on the seal. Bottom two boxes are fake.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Starbuckpga/2012-11-19_20-43-56_4671.jpg

The box code on left is real box and the box code on right is fake. Notice the ink is different?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Starbuckpga/2012-11-19_20-44-29_659.jpg

The real box has more rounded corners while the "fakes" are more rectangular, still rounded but not as much as the real box of 1966's.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Starbuckpga/2012-11-19_22-01-18_346.jpg

The border is engraved clearly on the real box and on the "fake" box it's not engraved very well.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Starbuckpga/2012-11-19_22-00-15_346.jpg

tippexx
21-11-2012, 03:14 PM
Good post Monk. Oh for the days when we could shame them eh!

The moral I guess is don't be beguiled by music on a front page, and just because it sounds like not everyone called that is really Zorro.

The sad thing, where there's one almighty clutch of fake boxes there's sure to be others and those only to eager to flog 'em!

monkey66
21-11-2012, 03:16 PM
Yup, like the fake Dunhills, Davidoffs, Cohiba EL's and Party EL's before them they will trickle into our collective humidor for years to come :(

tippexx
21-11-2012, 04:11 PM
:smile: Not mine Monk. Even at fake prices they'd still be too expensive for me!

monkey66
21-11-2012, 04:51 PM
:smile: Not mine Monk. Even at fake prices they'd still be too expensive for me!

My fear is with swaps, splits, MAW's, bombs etc they spread round like STD's.

larrysputnik
22-11-2012, 05:03 AM
Thank you monkey66 for adding this. Some of us get comfortable with where we buy to the point that we are not as vigilant as we should be. It is a sobering reminder, when something like counterfeits is brought back into the discussion, that we need to be educated consumers. It's also a testament to the UKCF that this forum is a leader in sharing information on cigar lifestyle because we stick to our standards not to "name and shame" companies when this happens. We are far more powerful to know what to look for rather than to believe who to look out for. Thank you for your insight. I, for one, have re-checked my humidor for obvious, and not-so-obvious, signs of fraud, as this post has brought me to the realization that I have taken some recent orders for granted.

JOAO LA PEZ
22-11-2012, 06:10 AM
Here in the UK we have nothing to worry about with H&F guarding the door against this sort of thing.

Ethem
22-11-2012, 06:21 AM
This is a fantastic post monkey! Thank you.

tippexx
22-11-2012, 08:43 AM
Here in the UK we have nothing to worry about with H&F guarding the door against this sort of thing.

Yes, and Distributors in other countries guard the doors to theirs JLP. But this isn't about distributors, it's about vendors and that fakes either deliberately or inadvertently can become part of their stock.

These cigars will go back to the vendor in question and hopefully the blokes on the other board should get their money back. The cigars however are NOT going to be destroyed, the vendor will in all likelihood put them back on a shelf to await new eager buyers looking for a bargain.

The other board got lucky in that it was a group buy and there was the opportunity to see several boxes side by side and to notice the discrepancies, (although even that wasn't immediate). I think a lot of people receiving just one box would be fooled. Although why anyone would want to buy Cohiba 1966 is another story.

JOAO LA PEZ
22-11-2012, 08:53 AM
Yes, and Distributors in other countries guard the doors to theirs JLP. But this isn't about distributors, it's about vendors and that fakes either deliberately or inadvertently can become part of their stock.

These cigars will go back to the vendor in question and hopefully the blokes on the other board should get their money back. The cigars however are NOT going to be destroyed, the vendor will in all likelihood put them back on a shelf to await new eager buyers looking for a bargain.

The other board got lucky in that it was a group buy and there was the opportunity to see several boxes side by side and to notice the discrepancies, (although even that wasn't immediate). I think a lot of people receiving just one box would be fooled. Although why anyone would want to buy Cohiba 1966 is another story.

Good point about Vendors, do you think I am safe fakes with my Quintero's and Chichalero's, :smile:.

tippexx
22-11-2012, 09:05 AM
Good point about Vendors, do you think I am safe fakes with my Quintero's and Chichalero's, :smile:.

About as safe as you might be with Golden Virginia or Silk Cut. If something's fakeable someone will consider faking it.

El Catador
22-11-2012, 09:38 AM
do you think I am safe fakes with my Quintero's and Chichalero's, :smile:.

Fear not Brother.. fake Quintero's are easy to spot.
(they taste better).

http://smileys.smilchat.net/smiley/characters/fume/vil2_fumeur.gif

Mind you, I got caught out myself last week by a dog rocket wrapped in toilet paper.
Guy in the shop said it was called a Fonseca..

Still.. the cigar may have been crap, but at least the paper came in useful.

Puff Scotty
22-11-2012, 11:24 AM
The same 'vendor' has been distributing counterfeits to my knowledge since 2000...perhaps if we climbed out of our 'holier than thou' attitude & did name & shame it would put arseholes like him out of business & protect the newcomer to cigars....

TJCoro
22-11-2012, 12:10 PM
...perhaps if we climbed out of our 'holier than thou' attitude & did name & shame it would put arseholes like him out of business & protect the newcomer to cigars....


Wouldn't it be nice....http://smileys.smilchat.net/smiley/spiritual/vil-mygod.gif

http://smileys.smilchat.net/smiley/famous/history/aventure/sauvages2.gifhttp://smileys.smilchat.net/smiley/famous/history/aventure/marmitte.gifhttp://smileys.smilchat.net/smiley/famous/history/aventure/sauvages2.gif




http://www.easyfreesmileys.com/smileys/free-character-smileys-238.gif Bag Boy

Jimmeh
22-11-2012, 12:26 PM
The same 'vendor' has been distributing counterfeits to my knowledge since 2000...perhaps if we climbed out of our 'holier than thou' attitude & did name & shame it would put arseholes like him out of business & protect the newcomer to cigars....

There are plenty of clues in Monkey's post to work out if its a retailer that you are dealing with. The retailer in question talk about their director quite prominently.

JOAO LA PEZ
22-11-2012, 12:55 PM
About as safe as you might be with Golden Virginia or Silk Cut. If something's fakeable someone will consider faking it.

Cannot see them making much out of a £28 a box of 25 Quintero panatalla's, mind if you shop at home and pay UK prices then at £150 a box there might be a bit in it.

monkey66
22-11-2012, 01:19 PM
The same 'vendor' has been distributing counterfeits to my knowledge since 2000...perhaps if we climbed out of our 'holier than thou' attitude & did name & shame it would put arseholes like him out of business & protect the newcomer to cigars....

We won't be naming them here but people are free to pm me if they want (as I said in my first post).

Probably wouldn't put them out of business, they have been named over the years many times but they are still in business.

tippexx
22-11-2012, 01:54 PM
Cannot see them making much out of a £28 a box of 25 Quintero panatalla's, mind if you shop at home and pay UK prices then at £150 a box there might be a bit in it.

And that exactly where the corner shops that sell fake fags an' booze make their money. When the corner shop buys legit Bensons and Smirnoff the Duty is included in the price they pay. The fakes they buy cheaply and then sell at full UK price .... the profit is huge.

joeray
22-11-2012, 03:48 PM
Great comparison. Would be helpful in future purchases. I believe its the same vendor I bought a box of 1966 from. The cigars looked very questionable, luckily, I sent them back and got my money back. It had the same fake box code as in the picture. I'll see if I can find the pictures and post them.


Found it. Here are the pictures of the 1966 box I bought from the same website. Now I am 100% convinced they were fake:

http://s568.beta.photobucket.com/user/cigar_joe/library/Cohiba%201966

monkey66
22-11-2012, 03:56 PM
Great comparison. Would be helpful in future purchases. I believe its the same vendor I bought a box of 1966 from. The cigars looked very questionable, luckily, I sent them back and got my money back. It had the same fake box code as in the picture. I'll see if I can find the pictures and post them.

That would be great, thanks.

joeray
22-11-2012, 03:58 PM
Some how my re-edit didn't get posted.

Here is the link to the pictures of the fake 1966 box I bought from the same vendor/website.

http://s568.beta.photobucket.com/user/cigar_joe/library/Cohiba 1966


Keep in mind the box and the seal and the labels were excellent fake and really hard to tell the difference. The box came sealed and un open. The only thing that I really got suspicious on was how veiny the cigars looked.

monkey66
22-11-2012, 04:13 PM
Great spot Joe, don't know if I would have been sure looking at those pics.

tippexx
22-11-2012, 05:04 PM
Now I am 100% convinced they were fake:

Which is often a difficult conclusion to reach and from which to take the necessary next steps.

To often I see BOTL who have suspicions about their purchases take the denial route and try to convince themselves that what they have is real and that 'too good to be true' vendors are genuine. Nobody likes to feel themselves a fool or the idea that someone they've trusted is untrustworthy. It's this simple psychology which makes online selling of fakes so easy and attractive to the disingenuous vendor.

Smallclub
22-11-2012, 05:50 PM
It's also a testament to the UKCF that this forum is a leader in sharing information on cigar lifestyle because we stick to our standards not to "name and shame" companies when this happens.

You can't be serious…

monkey66
22-11-2012, 06:21 PM
I do wonder where these are produced. I cannot imagine any printer in Europe or America knowingly printing clearly counterfeit products.

Just speculation but China springs to mind (Puffy called it).

Smallclub
22-11-2012, 06:41 PM
Just speculation but China springs to mind (Puffy called it).

Unemployment rate exceeds 25% in Spain, I don't think it would be difficult to find someone qualified for the job…

Batler
22-11-2012, 07:35 PM
Just wondering if someone could pm me or email me the website these came from. I'm new to cigars and don't want to buy from somewhere I could potentially get fakes

JOAO LA PEZ
22-11-2012, 07:39 PM
Just wondering if someone could pm me or email me the website these came from. I'm new to cigars and don't want to buy from somewhere I could potentially get fakes

You do not have a high enough post count to have PM's yet, think its 75 posts now.

Batler
22-11-2012, 07:47 PM
Oh right I had a pm saying I had been promted haha. Nevermind ill ask again when I reach the number

JOAO LA PEZ
22-11-2012, 07:54 PM
Oh right I had a pm saying I had been promted haha. Nevermind ill ask again when I reach the number

When i click on your name there is no pm available.

JOAO LA PEZ
22-11-2012, 07:56 PM
I do wonder where these are produced. I cannot imagine any printer in Europe or America knowingly printing clearly counterfeit products.

Just speculation but China springs to mind (Puffy called it).

Dude you are having a laugh, I spent my working life in print, when i retired in 2004 there were machines like photocopiers (Digital printing presses ) that would do just about everything needed, it really would be easy to do, the fakes are very amateur, colour matching is shite on all the printing

baileyth
22-11-2012, 08:05 PM
ahh well if something can be done to make money it will be,

joeray
22-11-2012, 08:19 PM
Dude you are having a laugh, I spent my working life in print, when i retired in 2004 there were machines like photocopiers (Digital printing presses ) that would do just about everything needed, it really would be easy to do, the fakes are very amateur, colour matching is shite on all the printing


Just go to Alibaba.com and do a search for Cohiba. All fake labels, etc. from China.

monkey66
22-11-2012, 08:19 PM
Dude you are having a laugh, I spent my working life in print, when i retired in 2004 there were machines like photocopiers (Digital printing presses ) that would do just about everything needed, it really would be easy to do, the fakes are very amateur, colour matching is shite on all the printing

Interesting. In your experience would printers turn a blind eye to the clear counterfeiting? Also how easy is it to reproduce the warranty labels with the fine detail and holograms?

Sent from happy, clappy, tappy.

Smallclub
22-11-2012, 08:36 PM
Interesting. In your experience would printers turn a blind eye to the clear counterfeiting? Also how easy is it to reproduce the warranty labels with the fine detail and holograms?

For big money, finding the printer is the easiest part of the job. As for the labels, easy job, no, but feasable, yes.

monkey66
22-11-2012, 09:17 PM
For big money, finding the printer is the easiest part of the job. As for the labels, easy job, no, but feasable, yes.

I'm sure it is possible but high risk. My thinking is the kind of equipment that can produce multi-material holographic labels normally belongs to a reasonable sized company with at least a few employee's. It is one thing for a one man band to put out fake stuff at night when on his own, quite another when you are relying on your employee's not to go to jail.

Of course all just speculation for discussion.

Joao - you were in the industry, what sort of set-up would be needed to produce labels like that?

JOAO LA PEZ
22-11-2012, 09:25 PM
Interesting. In your experience would printers turn a blind eye to the clear counterfeiting? Also how easy is it to reproduce the warranty labels with the fine detail and holograms?

Sent from happy, clappy, tappy.

The warranty label would be easy, given the computer set ups now, years ago when it would have been printed Letterpress that would have been a lot harder, now it would just need to be scanned, run through a sharpening program to take out the rough edges, imposed and a plate made, no idea about holographic images. given whats available it should not be difficult.

JOAO LA PEZ
22-11-2012, 09:28 PM
Any small single color press for the green label, then just a holograph machine

http://www.3dz.co.uk/

First to appear on google search

If someone brings a job into a print shop and asks for some labels with holograms unless the owner is savvy to hooky cigars is he likely to ask questions, lets face it it's not illegal to print the labels, and Cuba does not seem able to defend it's brand names, well not in the USA

monkey66
22-11-2012, 09:57 PM
OK, now I'm scared.

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/545298691/aluminum_printed_cigar_tubes_cohiba.html
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/606269287/Cohiba_Wooden_Sliding_Lid_Small_Cigar.html
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/564084035/cohiba_cigar_humidor_box.html
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/565005048/aluminum_cohiba_cigar_tube_packaging.html
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/617753087/cohiba_behike_spanish_ceder_wood_cigar.html
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/625993888/luxury_spanish_ceder_cohiba_behike_cigar.html
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/613550195/Small_Wood_Cohiba_Cigar_Box_for.html
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/581530095/montecristo_cigar_tube_packaging.html
http://szjunen.en.alibaba.com/product/572714965-213192034/aluminum_tube_for_cigars_romeo_juliet.html
http://szjunen.en.alibaba.com/product/567797868-213192034/stainless_aluminum_cigar_smoking_tube_packaging.ht ml

Book cigars...
http://kaiyingcigarbox.en.alibaba.com/productshowimg/358073717-210607844/cigar_humidor.html

JOAO LA PEZ
23-11-2012, 06:17 AM
Now do you get why i smoke Quintero's, :849:

no results on Alibaba

Ozzy
23-11-2012, 07:17 AM
Could I get a PM saying where these are from, so i end up not buying from them

tippexx
23-11-2012, 07:22 AM
Dude you are having a laugh, I spent my working life in print, when i retired in 2004 there were machines like photocopiers (Digital printing presses ) that would do just about everything needed, it really would be easy to do, the fakes are very amateur, colour matching is shite on all the printing


JLP is ABSOLUTELY correct. The errors are almost schoolboy. Any halfway decent graphic designer could set up everything necessary for print repro (bands, cartons, laser) exactly. I know I could do it.

The cigars are fake, possibly cuban tobacco and most likely produced in a Factory in Central America. These factories operate openly and will often call themselves Davidoff123, Cohiba1966 or similar. They operate during the space of time prior to Habanos SA discovering them and throughout the period needed to get them into court and dealt with, which in Central America can be a long time. They make no bones about what they produce and sell and the smokes can be found in tobacconists from Mexico to Patagonia.

The printing (mistakes) are not mistakes, they are wriggle room and just enough to change the accusation of 'counterfeiting' to 'passing off'. Counterfeiters found guilty go to prison. Businesses found guilty of 'passing off' have pay fines and compensate the claimant for loss of profits. Habanos do invariably win, but by then all money has vanished out of the guilty business, which then goes into liquidation and closes down on a Friday only to open it's doors the following Monday with a new name and the same owners.

Monk, believe me. If the Chinese ever turn their full printing skills to Habanos stuff finding the differences would be almost impossible.

tippexx
23-11-2012, 07:38 AM
Interesting. In your experience would printers turn a blind eye to the clear counterfeiting? Also how easy is it to reproduce the warranty labels with the fine detail and holograms?

Sent from happy, clappy, tappy.

Habanos made a rapid and unexpected change to hologram/seal late 2010 early 2011. It coincided almost exactly with the period when the factories were put off limit to tourists and visitors. I think it's not impossible that there was a serious investigation going on and that a lot of seals had gone missing.

JOAO LA PEZ
23-11-2012, 07:40 AM
It beggars the question why do they not go legit if they can get Cuban leaf and the resulting cigars seem to be of marketable quality, which would be a long term business plan rather than making a quick buck and run.

monkey66
23-11-2012, 08:00 AM
JLP is ABSOLUTELY correct. The errors are almost schoolboy. Any halfway decent graphic designer could set up everything necessary for print repro (bands, cartons, laser) exactly. I know I could do it.

The cigars are fake, possibly cuban tobacco and most likely produced in a Factory in Central America. These factories operate openly and will often call themselves Davidoff123, Cohiba1966 or similar. They operate during the space of time prior to Habanos SA discovering them and throughout the period needed to get them into court and dealt with, which in Central America can be a long time. They make no bones about what they produce and sell and the smokes can be found in tobacconists from Mexico to Patagonia.

The printing (mistakes) are not mistakes, they are wriggle room and just enough to change the accusation of 'counterfeiting' to 'passing off'. Counterfeiters found guilty go to prison. Businesses found guilty of 'passing off' have pay fines and compensate the claimant for loss of profits. Habanos do invariably win, but by then all money has vanished out of the guilty business, which then goes into liquidation and closes down on a Friday only to open it's doors the following Monday with a new name and the same owners.

Monk, believe me. If the Chinese ever turn their full printing skills to Habanos stuff finding the differences would be almost impossible.

Great post Arf, real insight into the reasons behind the 'differences'.

Although looking at these MGR's and 1966's it would be hard to call them 'passing off' ...unlike the old glass top-boxes.

Looking at the info on-line it cannot be a matter of if, but when the Chinese start (if they have not already :( ).

tippexx
23-11-2012, 08:02 AM
Because the US desire for forbidden fruit far outweighs the requirement of another NC brand in the marketplace.

monkey66
23-11-2012, 08:03 AM
It beggars the question why do they not go legit if they can get Cuban leaf and the resulting cigars seem to be of marketable quality, which would be a long term business plan rather than making a quick buck and run.

They already have brands across Asia but it is not the same as the international brand counterfeiting business.

tippexx
23-11-2012, 08:29 AM
it would be hard to call them 'passing off' ...unlike the old glass top-boxes.

Exactly Monk, it creates a 'mud' of unsurety which lawyers can operate within to string things out as long as possible. Notice with those Chinese tubes, they aren't called Cohiba Tubes, they're called Cohiba 'style' and with close inspection I bet there's just enough wriggle room to escape a charge of counterfeiting.

Which is how the dodgy factories operate. They make, sell and provide proper invoices to tabacs or whoever want's to buy their cigars. They don't pretend to be Habanos SA and they don't pretend that their products are Cuban cigars. The onus then is left on the tabacs or whoever to be candid with the end customer about what it is they are in turn are selling on ..... the chances are they won't.

Puff Scotty
23-11-2012, 09:18 AM
I,ve seen up close Montecristo, Cohiba, Partagas, RYJ and several other brands packaging being manufactured in China, not just packaging but humidors, lighters,gifts of all sorts.
I can and will say again that they manufacture different qualities for different markets...I have seen Cohiba bands by the thousand that scream fake at you next to a stack that was Hmmm passable..next to a stack that IMO,was 100%....I visited 4 factories over a course of 3 days that were 100's of miles apart but all 'related' in some fashion..& nothing was hidden.
I was shown this as a reassurance of supply chain efficiency which I'd had severe doubts about...& my colleague, Chinese lad who has a Cambridge Masters Degree in business, knew I could relate to cigars...
As for legality in China nobody actually gives a shit, just don't upset the applecart!

tippexx
23-11-2012, 09:27 AM
As for legality in China nobody actually gives a shit, just don't upset the applecart!


:smile: I think Monk's just had a heart attack 'cos there's thousands of Torcedors in China too!

Puff Scotty
23-11-2012, 10:38 AM
:smile: I think Monk's just had a heart attack 'cos there's thousands of Torcedors in China too!

LMAO :biggrin1:.... Flippin' TONS of tobacco as well...:849:

TJCoro
23-11-2012, 01:30 PM
JLP is ABSOLUTELY correct. The errors are almost schoolboy. Any halfway decent graphic designer could set up everything necessary for print repro (bands, cartons, laser) exactly. I know I could do it.

Wow! I did not know you were a halfway decent graphic designer.

Good to know! :thumb;

Bag Boy

:lol: Haha! Zip it, bag boy! You're disrupting the flow of this most excellent thread.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

peanutpete
23-11-2012, 02:45 PM
Bloody hell this scary,i wonder if we should also be carefull about our whisky,wines etc

tippexx
23-11-2012, 02:56 PM
Bloody hell this scary,i wonder if we should also be carefull about our whisky,wines etc

Should Pete. Fake wine got into the legit UK supply chain earlier this year and ended up on Tesco shelves. Their buyers had been duped and cases on top of pallets were genuine and taste samples had been taken from them, the cases beneath were full of fake bottle .... and it wasn't discovered until a customer who knew his stuff contacted Tesco with his reservations about the wines authenticity.

peanutpete
23-11-2012, 03:12 PM
Should Pete. Fake wine got into the legit UK supply chain earlier this year and ended up on Tesco shelves. Their buyers had been duped and cases on top of pallets were genuine and taste samples had been taken from them, the cases beneath were full of fake bottle .... and it wasn't discovered until a customer who knew his stuff contacted Tesco with his reservations about the wines authenticity.

thats right i remember that case f...k i wonder if any one is counterfeiting my nuts:biggrin1:

monkey66
24-11-2012, 02:41 PM
Latest speculation seems to be that the warranty seals were real but stolen. This then led to a change in design. Still after seeing Alibaba it won't matter soon. Based just on what's available on Google I'm convinced there is exact replica packaging available today.

Pete, you have nothing to worry about. All the boys say your nuts have a unique taste :rolleyes:

monkey66
24-11-2012, 03:26 PM
If legitimate vendors are selling fake Cuban cigars, should we as purchasers be looking to form a collective to group buy and legally Import from Cuba to cut out the chance of fakes?.

lmfao :roll::roll::roll: :roll::roll::roll: :roll::roll::roll: :roll::roll::roll: :roll::roll::roll: :roll::roll::roll:





ok, but lets pretend for a second that that was a serious suggestion....

Depends on how you want to define 'legitimate'. This was a sale by Spanish grey-market seller. Pretty sure H and F will tell you they have never sold a counterfeit stick and this is why you should always buy from them. You pay a bit more but your quality is guaranteed kind of thing.

You would not be able to import cigars from Cuba to the UK as H and F own the franchise for the UK (unless they allowed you). I think there are exclusive distributorship's for nearly every global market.

It is this monopoly (and govt's taxation policy) that leads to us chasing cheap prices, and lets us fall for fakes and cons.

But if you want to start a cigar distribution business go for it (that's what's called when a few people get together to perform an act of commerce, not a 'collective'). You would not be the first that started off as an enthusiast and that led to them getting into the industry, some quite successfully. However if your goal is to have great, original smokes, legitimately imported to the UK, at duty-free prices we all know you will be disappointed.

Perhaps we should stop pretending that cheap cigars is some sort of mission or human right. At the end of the day Cuban Cigars are a luxury product which have nothing to do with the real issues in the world. This is a pay-to-play hobby and all of us who smoke cigars (burning expensive leaves flown all over the world) are to some degree frivolousness and selfish. To then spend ones energy bitching about the price seems kind of shallow to me.


....but you were just having a laugh, right?

monkey66
24-11-2012, 03:30 PM
Has this stuff spread into stores or is it mainly occurring over internet sites?
You would of thought that vendors would check their stock.

This is almost always limited to non-UK on-line sites but has been know to appear in some (non-UK) shops.

There are more fake cigars in the world than real ones, educate yourself as best you can, buy form reputable sources and if a deal is too good to be true it probably is.

We have very few fakes in the shops in the UK (just very high prices).

JOAO LA PEZ
24-11-2012, 04:02 PM
lmfao :roll::roll::roll: :roll::roll::roll: :roll::roll::roll: :roll::roll::roll: :roll::roll::roll: :roll::roll::roll:





ok, but lets pretend for a second that that was a serious suggestion....

Depends on how you want to define 'legitimate'. This was a sale by Spanish grey-market seller. Pretty sure H and F will tell you they have never sold a counterfeit stick and this is why you should always buy from them. You pay a bit more but your quality is guaranteed kind of thing.

You would not be able to import cigars from Cuba to the UK as H and F own the franchise for the UK (unless they allowed you). I think there are exclusive distributorship's for nearly every global market.

It is this monopoly (and govt's taxation policy) that leads to us chasing cheap prices, and lets us fall for fakes and cons.

But if you want to start a cigar distribution business go for it (that's what's called when a few people get together to perform an act of commerce, not a 'collective'). You would not be the first that started off as an enthusiast and that led to them getting into the industry, some quite successfully. However if your goal is to have great, original smokes, legitimately imported to the UK, at duty-free prices we all know you will be disappointed.

Perhaps we should stop pretending that cheap cigars is some sort of mission or human right. At the end of the day Cuban Cigars are a luxury product which have nothing to do with the real issues in the world. This is a pay-to-play hobby and all of us who smoke cigars (burning expensive leaves flown all over the world) are to some degree frivolousness and selfish. To then spend ones energy bitching about the price seems kind of shallow to me.


....but you were just having a laugh, right?

monopoly, only if you are reselling.

El Catador
24-11-2012, 04:23 PM
Fascinating topic and an interesting read.


There are more fake cigars in the world than real ones

That's seems an astonishing claim.. Do you have a source?

monkey66
25-11-2012, 03:40 PM
Fascinating topic and an interesting read.



That's seems an astonishing claim.. Do you have a source?

Nope, perhaps a bit poor by me :frown:

I guess in my head the general cigar community seems to be of this opinion. Could be wrong of course. But when you look at the numbers of fake Cubans in Cuba, South and North America, Caribbean, Eastern Europe and now China there must be a lot.

monkey66
25-11-2012, 03:43 PM
A little update.

The 'square' seal was apparently used on some legitimate products pre Dec 10.

This reinforces the 'real but stolen' theory to the label, and the theory that this is why HSA changed an already new label design.

donkeydrop
25-11-2012, 08:37 PM
so am I safe from fakes if I buy from reputable shops like jjfox or the black swan? I buy in singles so never get to see the box labels.

Aussiewaz
03-12-2012, 10:34 AM
so am I safe from fakes if I buy from reputable shops like jjfox or the black swan? I buy in singles so never get to see the box labels.A polite question, why do you not get to see the boxes? Every B&M I have bought from allows me to check the box for date stamp & labelling when buying singles, I pick the cigar from the box myself. Just curious is all.

monkey66
03-12-2012, 12:06 PM
so am I safe from fakes if I buy from reputable shops like jjfox or the black swan? I buy in singles so never get to see the box labels.

I wouldn't worry for a second with JJF. Don't know the Black Swan but if they are supplied by H and F direct all should be good.

donkeydrop
03-12-2012, 12:27 PM
I buy online in singles, if I went to the shop I could see the boxes but the shop is 90 miles away!

Aussiewaz
03-12-2012, 09:13 PM
I buy online in singles, if I went to the shop I could see the boxes but the shop is 90 miles away!Ah yes, that makes sense then. :)

donkeydrop
03-12-2012, 09:29 PM
we do have a cigar shop in Huddersfield but unfortunately I cant get in to the place as its a listed building and does not have a ramp for my chair

donkeydrop
03-12-2012, 09:30 PM
thanks monkey ill check with kriss at the black swan but im sure he is with h and f

SmokeyDave
04-12-2012, 07:55 AM
Back off my month holiday and just read through this post, very interesting reading, especially as my job is Reprographics.

I can say that to reproduce a Cohiba box design is an absolute breeze, it is not exactly complex in make up and design, probably an hours work for me on a Mac if I have a real box to reference.

Set up costs for the Foil blocking isn't expensive for a counterfeit setup, maybe £700.00 a design roughly.

Anyone who is a printer will be used to colour matching special inks.

An old print press can be bought pretty cheaply, but to be honest if the outfit is into counterfeiting on a large scale it's peanuts to them.

And as a final thought, up until recently Leicester (where I live) used to be the counterfeit capital of Europe.

Aussiewaz
04-12-2012, 10:09 AM
Leicester (where I live) used to be the counterfeit capital of Europe.Ah hah! Got any of those glass top boxes laying around that I may purchase at a premium? LOL. Just kidding as your input is interesting. :)

cigarsam
04-12-2012, 10:43 AM
what we need is an app on mobiles which can scan the boxes and verify if they are real or not!

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