Cigar Stores?

[Simon-JG-hr]

First off - does anyone know of any cigar stores in Plymouth (as I'll be moving back to within a stones-throw of the sea in the near future)? I've hunted around online but the closest I can find is in Exeter.

Secondly, what should a good cigar store have? I was looking at starting a little cocktail bar with a cigar selection when I'm down there, but premises with A3 permission seem prohibitavely expensive. So spotted a nice little (new) unit underneath the apartment I'm moving into, with a very reasonable rent. It would be ideal for a little cigar shop in my opinion :idea: - unless there's already one in Plymouth. A fairly large population and multiple military bases nearby (and wardrooms do have a good number of cigar appreciators), so potential for reasonable local trade.

(One of the commercial units (http://www.vickeryholman.com/pdfs/VICKERYHOLMAN_405.pdf) if anyone is interested...) :cowboyic9:

[HabanoSy]

Sounds like a great idea Simon.

No there is no tobacconists in Plymouth at all and you are correct the nearest one is in Exeter - so no probs there...

Good luck with the venture mate and im sure if you need anything at all there will be someone on here that will be more than willing to help a BOTL...

Cheers, HabanoSy

[PoohBore]

Why don't you pop into Cheltenham and have a look at the 2 retailers there ?

One is a newsagents near Slaters and the other is in the top floor of the shopping centre connected to Cavendish house.

Have a look at the Hunters and Frankau website and they talk about training for their retailers.

[skyhigh]

good luck to you in your venture!!

only cigar shop up near myself is in Durham and they also do pipes aswell to try and cater for both clientele. Each time i've been in, there seemed to be a steady stream of people passing through its doors.

[SDavis]

Hi Simon,

There are actually a few retailers in the Plymouth area, most notably the Tobacco Bar, 126 Cornwall St, and then I would also highly recommend the Counting House - http://www.countinghouseplymouth.co.uk/ - which is on St Andrew's Street.

If you are looking into setting up a small business I'd be more than happy to help you out, you can get in touch via s.davis@cigars.co.uk

Hope this helps and good luck :smile:

[Simon-JG-hr]

Thanks for the info and 'good lucks' guys - I'll pop into Cheltenham some time to have a look at the two stores there.

The interesting thing if I do go for this will be, I think, getting a walk-in humidor fitted...

If all goes to plan, and the option is still open to me, I will doubtless be in touch SDavis.

Cubans, naturally; accessories; some pipe stuff; and I might also try for a good selection of non-cubans (as they usually seem a little tricky to get hold of over here).

[Simon-JG-hr]

Just had a really awful idea... :tongue:

You know those really annoying offers (yeah, sums it up really), the ones where you get a tacky free gift and then buy something of someone else's choosing four times a year...

How about a cigar version? You sign up, get a quirky cigar accessory (not tacky stuff) and then get a mini sampler sent to you quarterly. Possibly a nice way to try some sticks you wouldn't normally think of buying.

Yeah, thought it was an annoying idea. :der:

[Simon-JG-hr]

Looking more likely now.

Had a good chat with one of H&F's reps. Got the information on the local competition... so went to have a little nose whilst I was in the city today. More filters and rolling/pipe tobaccos than I could have imagined, but cigar wise, entirely tubos, and not much choice (a couple of vitolas each of Cohiba, RyJ, Monte, Bolivar and Punch). Did pick up a Siglo I to try and a copy of the Telegraph to read on the train on the way back.

Commercial units still available. :biggrin1:

Fingers well and truly crossed.

[HabanoSy]

Good luck mate...

I sincerely hope you go for it...!!!

Cheers, HabanoSy

[Simon-JG-hr]

Thank you.

Naturally if this does go ahead, good things for regular UKCF contributors might be in store...

I've decided that I might try a slightly different tack from the norm though...

Obviously all the usual Cubans, but I'm thinking of trying to put together the best selection of NCs in the UK (just got to track down all the different importers... - I have found a useful site for that though). Need to have something to differentiate from all the London stores. ;)

Plus some top quality spirits. Though they were going to be there anyway (the original idea had been for a bar...)

Some brands I noted in my pad this afternoon over the VR Famosos: RP, Ashton VSG, Padron, Casa Magna, Fuente (esp Opus X range), Oliva, Te Amo, Alec Bradley, CAO, plus of course Davidoff, and (hopefully) Dunhill.

[daverave999]

This is very exciting.

What kind of 'quirky cigar accessory' do you mean?

Also, if you're looking to sell online, I have run a shop using OScommerce before so if you need any help. I'm sure you won't be short of IT help round here though...

[Simon-JG-hr]

Cheers Dave.

That reminds me! What are you rates Mr B (in Cubans preferably... ;) ).

[Simon-JG-hr]

What kind of 'quirky cigar accessory' do you mean?Was thinking of giving the option of something like a small carrying case/tube, travel ashtray or lighter... something like that anyway.

[ACMCC]

Sounds like a cracking idea Simon, In this current economic climate you should be able to get a good deal on the lease, a rent free initial period would be a good option, and diversification is also a safer bet.

Cocktails and a good range of accessories depending on space is a good starting point, I would imagine the cigar trade to be fairly steady, so getting word to all the existing cigar smokers would be the order of the day, and with some opening offers, there in the shop! like most businesses hard work, lateral thinking and a good business plan, and success is on the way, and you would be the chief cigar tester......:smoke:

[daverave999]

With regards to the NC selection, I don't know if mysmokingshop.co.uk has entered your consciousness? A possible NC competitor there.

Will you be selling cigarettes? Snuff? Will you be investigating the dispensation for tobacco stores allowing smoking inside? :cowboyic9:
Just some ideas...

[Simon-JG-hr]

With regards to the NC selection, I don't know if mysmokingshop.co.uk has entered your consciousness? A possible NC competitor there.I've seen, and checked out mysmokingshop.co.uk - they've got a few good NCs (RP, CAO, Padron...) but could certainly do better. ;) I've got to decide where to draw the line though. I'd like to not sell Hamlets and Villigers etc... but are there too many 'cigar smokers that know no better' that will be lost as trade?


Will you be selling cigarettes?How dare you suggest such a thing!? :biggrin1: Again, like Hamlets, got to decide if potential turnover is worth diluting what I hope will be a reputation for only selling what I consider to be good products...


Snuff?Possibly, along with pipes and pipe tobacco.


Will you be investigating the dispensation for tobacco stores allowing smoking inside? :cowboyic9:How could you possibly suggest that I should demonstrate such a flagrant disregard for the laws of the land. :eek: I shall, however, be taking the opportunity to encourage people to test cigars in the shop... ;)

[daverave999]

Most importantly, what are you going to call it?

[Simon-JG-hr]

I'm hopeless at names. I was thinking of running a competition. The winning entry (if I do get to open the shop), will win a Ltd Edition sampler. :thumb:

Get naming!

[jimmy_g32]

Sounds like a great idea, Simon. I'd love to have the balls (and, for that matter, the capital!) to set up a small business in something I really loved. Best of luck with it - just a shame you don't want to come to Ipswich!

[jonnor]

Good luck Simon, hope it all works out for you, real living the dream stuff!! Not sure what your background is, but if this is your first business, see if there is an enterprise hub near you, they can offer alot of help, and its usually free

[MaledettoToscano]

Good luck Simon!

I'm not the best "namer" out there, but I'd love to see a cigar shop called "Smooth Smoke"... won't be offended if people think it is crap :eviltongue:!

I admire your point about cigarettes although you could also think as a tool to get people in the shop and tempt them into cigars.

A bit like a dealer offering a bit of grass to turn you to crack, not that I am talking from experience:hippie: :lol:

[rokkitsci]

This is an absolute no brainer:

Simply Simon's


I'm hopeless at names. I was thinking of running a competition. The winning entry (if I do get to open the shop), will win a Ltd Edition sampler. :thumb:

Get naming!

[jonnor]

What sort of market are you looking to attract (cigar smokers obviously!) are you looking to be 'Simon J Griffiths - Purveyors of fine cigars to the landed gentry' or 'Si's Smoke Shack' (I think we have a winner, competition closed :tongue:) and try to attract a younger audience who would perhaps buy into the cigar culture (if you go this way, the culture is something (IMO) that you should push) and try out new stuff.

Either way all the cigar smokers (is there a word for that?) in your area already have a supplier, be it a shop or the web (looks like the web) so you have to get them to drop their current supplier and come to you.

Personally i think you are entering a really difficult market (I assume that more tobaccanists are closing than opening still?) Have you considered maybe minimising your risk by approaching some other shops, independant drink shops, speciality shops etc and seeing if you could setup on a smaller scale in their premises? or maybe even setup 'cigar booths' in top end pubs\restaurants with changing supplies of stock, 'cigar of the week' promo's etc, and try to build a client base like that with a view to opening a shop in a few years?

How ever you decide to go, I wish you the best (taking my boring hat off, its the sort of thing I could get really hooked into), but watch your costs, shop rent+business rates+gas+water+electricity+security+shop fittings+walk in humidor+stock+VAT on most if not all of that lot is going to be a lot of cash up front.

What ever you do, bloody good luck!

All the best

Jonno

[Simon-JG-hr]

Thank you all. Some interesting name suggestions so far. I won't pass comment just yet... :biggrin1:


How ever you decide to go, I wish you the best (taking my boring hat off, its the sort of thing I could get really hooked into), but watch your costs, shop rent+business rates+gas+water+electricity+security+shop fittings+walk in humidor+stock+VAT on most if not all of that lot is going to be a lot of cash up front.Quite right, and finding something affordable is something that is vital in my opinion. I've been looking at lot at working out the sort of turnover that would be needed per-week and per-day to keep things ticking over (force of habit from my stint working in sales where there were weekly targets that we tracked almost constantly to see where we were).

I've found a nice, small unit for £6,000 per annum with reasonable rates etc. (I only need something quite compact). I couldn't believe it to be honest, as I'd seen nothing for less that £19,000 up until that point. I've had a look at it, and it is new, so a little needs to be spent on finishing it, but nothing drastic. H&F are very good about supplying humidors for stock bought off them (though I would, of course, have to source my own for most of my NC stock). The biggest capital cost that I can foresee is the cigar stock itself...

[Simon-JG-hr]

Reference the website that I linked to elsewhere... (www.southwestcigars.co.uk (http://www.southwestcigars.co.uk)).

It doesn't look very cigar related... granted. It was literally just something I threw together using templates from my service provider. Not very good. It won't be the shop site, that will be very different (as, indeed, will the current one when finally sorted out).

There will be two websites (if all goes to plan), a company website, SW Cigars (hopefully a distributor of some kind if all goes to plan) and then a store website (name still to be decided - the offer/competition still stands).

As for the resizing... I agree completely, it's very annoying. As soon as I get a chance I'm going to be working on the site a bit to sort that out (indeed, a large overhaul full-stop).

As for the herf on Saturday. It was very interesting talking to Simon Chase. A very interesting and knowledgeable man. Most importantly, he has a wonderful enthusiasm for all things cigar, and I can't deny that it rubbed off in some way shape or form.

[G-man]

simonjgriffithshr (http://www.ukcigarforums.com/member.php?u=436)Purveyors of fine cigars !:rock:

[cj121]

Late in on this one.

What an interesting venture Simon, all the very best with it:smile:

[jpmoore]

A bit late to this one but here is my 2 pence worth on names

Havanas

or

The Humidor

or

Cigarz

[Simon-JG-hr]

For want of anything else to do on this boring evening... Just thought I'd do an update, one-year on pretty much.

I have finally had a viewing at the potential units - it's only thirteen months since I first mooted the idea. One of the units is now being moved into (so I wouldn't be the only occupied unit). The prices have dropped now, down to £4,000pa / £7,000pa, and they are offering rent-free entry (based on cost of fitting, but hoping I might be able to extend it). The agent believes that there would be no problems using the unit for 'sampling', but it might need to be a consideration when fitting it out (presumably choice of materials).

I'd love for it to be a truly multi-product store - cigars, fine wine, spirits etc. But I would also need to keep cigars above 50% of business to allow for the sampling... :wacko: (Whether I could count any online sales towards that...???)

[Pipe Dude]

Have you looked into a bonded warehouse to store your imports without paying the duty on them?

[DeadBase]

I'm going to agree with the G-Man, if you have a name with some gusto behind it why not go with the classic.

Also, try and get Tatuaje's in - the ones I've now smoked have been superb but I can't find them for love nor money.

[PoohBore]

Is this oportunity with simons contacts to get a uk cigar forum cigar rolled? I also think if you can sell nubs you would have at least 1 customer guaranteed !!!!

[captain duff]

Well clearly there aren't a huge number of specialist shops around which can indicate gaps in the market. But it can also indicate a small market where enough trade to break even could be a problem. Personally, my fear would be that if you keep everything 'top end' then you limit regular turnover and risk being stung when problems in the economy mean people are looking for economies. That said of course, one of the best times to start a new business can be during a recession because of the cheapness of rents etc. But looking at my local shop (mysmokingshop) I think the owner has probably got things right on a few different levels. First, I think his premises probably has a very cheap rent (its a very nice shop but essentially a unit in a warehouse out of the town centre). Second, he has got a very good mail order set up that gives him access to a national market as well as a local one via the shop. Third, while all the top end stuff is there in terms of cigars (and some great brandy etc) he also sells loose cigarette and pipe tobaccos - and the former in particular means a very regular walk in trade from people looking for very cheap roll up baccy (my non-cigar ciggy smoking mates use him for this reason alone), and while of course you can present all that in a nice way within the shop (old jars or whatever), the fact is this 'economy' trade is probably very good at keeping the regular pennies coming in between the sales of top end cigars etc.

[Simon-JG-hr]

Some excellent points captain - particularly the rolling tobacco. I am always surprised by how many people are smoking roll-ups now. For my money they are far, far better than cigarettes (as in I will smoke a roll-up, I won't touch a Malboro...)

Mail-order/online sales is something I would particularly like to try and make the most of - without the overheads of the London based retailers, I'd hope to at least mitigate their economies of scale.

I think now is the time to pull the trigger (if I can). I almost can't believe how low the rent is on these units. They're on a bit of a side-street I admit (but I wouldn't have thought that cigars is exactly a 'passing trade' type of business. But it's close to the city centre, about 30 yards off the busiest road into the city and a stones throw from the marina reception (and I've yet to meet a sailor who doesn't smoke something!)

I'm also hoping to try and build-in some extras - like herf organization (e.g. office celebrations, stag parties etc) - good value added, just my time. And, give the attempt at importing another shot. But that may require too much capital.

Pipe Dude - not sure it should be much of an issue at the moment. When I get going it will likely just be stuff imported by H&F or Tor etc. So hopefully they'll have dealt with all the duties before selling me stock. :smile:

[jamesmids]

I think you,ll do well Simon , you,ve really researched everything in depth by Reading this thread and you,ve got some great ideas .
I've got my own bussiness and 10 years ago when I first opened i was bricking myself but I can safely say it was the best thing I ever did .
I know up here ( leics) rates are based on the rentable value , they told me that any rent below 7 k entitles you to small bussiness rate relief , my rents 520 per month making my rates 120. Per month , I think in oct the goverment are giving us more off in rate relief.
Anyway good luck matey look forward to seeing it progress.
James.

[Lee Nub]

Just do your homework bud, I started my business 8 years ago and its been a long struggle. I'm in a low rental building, but my total overheads run me 100,000 a year. My initial business plan basically went out of the window, I re-evaluated this over the last few years, and started to make a profit.Also check if any funding is available to you, my bank will hardly give me anything and I'm an established business with a good customer base and ongoing order book. I came from a psychology background, went into the building business working for my dad, and eventually opened my own store, I didn't have a clue when I started.

If you ever need to chat with a store owner (cartridges not cigars lol) then shoot me a pm :)

Good luck, we need more entrepreneurs in this country

[Simon-JG-hr]

Thanks for the further thoughts guys. Things are starting to progress now. I should (hopefully) have an online presence sometime in the coming month or so. NCs at first, not sure when I'll be in a position to get the Cubans through the door.

I had a very interesting and (I thought) productive trip to Tor Imports on Friday, which has seemingly been the final catalyst I needed.

I'm now trying to choose the right online store provider, and make it look just right. Here's how it's progressing:

http://shop.southwestcigars.co.uk/

It's NOT live yet. Just thought I'd ask for some opinions (remember it's rather formative still).

When it goes live properly (I hope I can stop using the word 'if' now) I'll post the appropriate thread in the appropriate forum.

[davidruddell]

Well done Simon, great to see the site up and running, anything I can do to help just ask.

Great idea regarding the corporate tastings day, sure some of our more auspicious institutions would be good for that sort of thing.

Love the logo, but there is a small hairline to the left hand side.

If it is something that needs fixing/optimisation, just pm/mail me.

[bopmachine]

You might want to try shopify - they have a free trial.

http://www.shopify.com/


Thanks for the further thoughts guys. Things are starting to progress now. I should (hopefully) have an online presence sometime in the coming month or so. NCs at first, not sure when I'll be in a position to get the Cubans through the door.

I had a very interesting and (I thought) productive trip to Tor Imports on Friday, which has seemingly been the final catalyst I needed.

I'm now trying to choose the right online store provider, and make it look just right. Here's how it's progressing:

http://shop.southwestcigars.co.uk/

It's NOT live yet. Just thought I'd ask for some opinions (remember it's rather formative still).

When it goes live properly (I hope I can stop using the word 'if' now) I'll post the appropriate thread in the appropriate forum.

[daverave999]

I'm now trying to choose the right online store provider, and make it look just right. Here's how it's progressing:

http://shop.southwestcigars.co.uk/

It's NOT live yet. Just thought I'd ask for some opinions (remember it's rather formative still).
Looking good so far.

A few ideas:

Do you have your own hosting at southwestcigars.co.uk and are redirecting the subdomain to the freewebstore? You may like to try osCommerce or PrestaShop on your own hosting. Gives you a lot more control and won't be much different to manage. Looks a lot more professional too.

I'd also put the shop on the main domain rather than on a subdomain. I have no reason other than personal preference though I suspect it may affect SEO.

Sign up for Google Checkout as you will likely get less problems with them than PP. Unless of course you are going the merchant account route from your (a) bank.

If you want to swap links with a few of my 'other' websites in the future let me know.

[monkey66]

Good luck Simon. My experience on web sites is SEO is critical. Research the industry key searches and ensure you cover them in your H1/2/3/4's and all the other balances Google loves.

If you don't know what this means (I didn't when I started) find someone who does. It takes about a year but with a little planning (and a lot of legitimate back-links) you can get to page 1/2 on Google without advertising.

[Simon-JG-hr]

Cheers guys. Thanks for the tips for other store providors (you are right, it is redirecting from my domain).

As for payment, there isn't a hope in hell of my using PayPal. Firstly, I (and I suspect others) associate it with people selling stuff on eBay - to my mind, it doesn't quite have the professional look I would hope for. Secondly, I understand that there are considerably issues with tobacco and PayPal. I will likely go for something like RBS World Pay (but I can't change the settings until I've actually got the account - hence still in development).

As for the subdomain - that's interim (sort of). If the physical shop goes ahead, I shall probably give it a different domain and use that as the primary access point.

I'm not quite sure where that line came from david (it might have been from when I cropped it?)

[richgirling]

Best of luck with your venture.:smoke:

[Lee Nub]

Paypal is beginning to become more widely used by the high street, but your right about tobacco, you get a 6 month ban for accepting money for tobacco sales. You have my admiration and best wishes mate, I set up my own business 8 years ago, in much better times than these and I know how much work is required. Good luck mate.

[daverave999]

Cheers guys. Thanks for the tips for other store providors (you are right, it is redirecting from my domain).

As for payment, there isn't a hope in hell of my using PayPal. Firstly, I (and I suspect others) associate it with people selling stuff on eBay - to my mind, it doesn't quite have the professional look I would hope for. Secondly, I understand that there are considerably issues with tobacco and PayPal. I will likely go for something like RBS World Pay (but I can't change the settings until I've actually got the account - hence still in development).

As for the subdomain - that's interim (sort of). If the physical shop goes ahead, I shall probably give it a different domain and use that as the primary access point.

I'm not quite sure where that line came from david (it might have been from when I cropped it?)
I was just mentioning PP after seeing the logo but RBS World Pay looks a good option. There appears to be a PrestaShop module for that too.

Are you thinking of just selling online? I recall you talking about the shop unit round the corner from you but I'd be surprised if you found that as lucrative as selling online. Obviously this is guesswork as I've not run an 'offline' shop before...

[Lee Nub]

Overheads kill it in a shop. My overheads on mine are £8900 a month, just to open the doors.

[tippexx]

Just a few thoughts Simon. Not to pour rain on your parade, but hopefully a tuppence worth of help.

1. Number of chimneys within 50 square miles. 5% is your best possible cigar market.

2. Shop location in relation to high street shopping and thoroughfare ie. is it on a route where pedestrians are going in significant numbers — station etc.
Is it easy park or is there a Car Park close by.

3. Security. Cigars, spirits, cigarettes etc are all high crime target items. I don't mean for petty pilferers but break-in criminals. An Insurance Company will insist on effective security before providing cover.

3. Cigarettes. These are the primary walk-in commodity of a tobacconist. Apart from the ordinary everyday main sellers there are dozens of unusual and premium cigarettes. LGC, Cohiba for example. But, I would not be ashamed to sell Silk Cut in a shop majoring cigars, because sooner or later some of those cigarette smokers will make the move into cigars.

4. Related items. Chocolate and tea and coffee are often the sole commodity of some retailers. Could these be sold along with higher-end or speciality wines and spirits. (I'm not totally sure at the moment, but in some ways might it not be better to be seen as a purveyor of luxury indulgences with a 'cigar/tobacco core' rather than as a pure cigar/tobacco shop.

5. Branding. Names are names and logos are logos and if they've been around long enough or had enough money chucked at them, they stick.
However when something is brand new and when possibly there aren't shedloads of money to pour into launching and developing a brand, then it pays to be simple and given that it is a ONE locality only shop, the more obviously simple the better. I would see nothing wrong for example in calling the shop The Cigar Shop if it were a one product shop. Simon Griffiths on the other hand lends itself to any multitude of products, it also gives personality and has a nice (although Welsh) quintessentially English middle-class tone to it.

6. E-commerce. Here I think is an opportunity to be adventurous and exciting. Although to be honest when I first looked on-line for a UK Cuban cigar vendor I was first, delighted to find any and then like everyone else sifted prices before making my choice. I now have two favourite sites that I stick to, neither are the prettiest of the UK sites, but they're reasonably easy to operate and both are the keenest pricewise.

[Simon-JG-hr]

Overheads kill it in a shop. My overheads on mine are £8900 a month, just to open the doors.Ouch! I did notice that a lot of vacant stores in Plymouth were very pricey (just for the unit itself, never mind rates, electricity, security etc etc). The unit I have got my eye on (as it is still something I'd like to do) has a very good rent of £4,000pa (with rent free entry). However, that doesn't account for everything else... (Plus, as a new build, I'd have to fit it out - hence rent free entry).

Big selling point of physical shop: use of the cigar sampling/pipe tobacco sampling exemption from aspects of the smoking laws. There would, however, be implications for what value of other goods I could sell to maintain exemption (though I would ideally have some fine wines/spirits, Italian roasted coffee etc).

[tippexx]

Big selling point of physical shop: use of the cigar sampling/pipe tobacco sampling exemption from aspects of the smoking laws. There would, however, be implications for what value of other goods I could sell to maintain exemption (though I would ideally have some fine wines/spirits, Italian roasted coffee etc).


I thought come 2011, by Law no cigar, cigarette and tobacco could be displayed at all. So, some imaginative use of windows, counters and display areas will be necessary.

[daverave999]

I thought come 2011, by Law no cigar, cigarette and tobacco could be displayed at all. So, some imaginative use of windows, counters and display areas will be necessary.
I recall there were exemptions for specialist tobacconists (http://www.ukcigarforums.com/showthread.php?t=4419).

[EDIT] That was Scotland. :D I assume this is what you meant though?

[Simon-JG-hr]

I think there may be something similar in England/Wales (though I don't know about exemptions to the E/W version. I also understand that the government are reviewing it (I had a look after tippexx mentioned it): http://www.politics.co.uk/news/health/coalition-considers-reversing-tobacco-display-ban-$21381559.htm

Bloody ludicrous law as others have said already in the other thread. Of course kids have no interest in secret/underground stuff... :rolleyes: Simple response: severely punish those found to be selling or supplying tobacco products to those who are underage. Labour were a truly hideous government which grew more Stalinist every year (never trust a socialist - that's my motto ;) ).

[El Catador]

A fascinating thread and a very interesting read.

Looking forward to hearing more on the possible plans.

I just wanted to say, regarding the post by Tippex (Post No.47).

Bravo Arf old son - awesome piece of work - if we had a 'Post of the Month' competition. That would be a contender for me.
(doffs cap in admiration).

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-fc/goodjob.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

[Simon-JG-hr]

Indeed it was, a very thorough and helpful post. :thumb:

[monkey66]

Have you been speaking to H and F. I think they are at the coal-face regarding many of these issues and as a potential new retailer one would imagine they will be keen to help/advise.