Free Speech

[Robusto]

I've been thinking about freedom of speech quite a bit over the last few months. Amongst other things, my thinking has been prompted by my experiences in Cuba, by Nick Griffiths's appearance on Question Time, by re-reading George Orwell's 1984 and by what amounts to a succession of edicts about what I am obliged to do in my job and how unnecessary and time-consumingly pointless those edicts can be.

I know I should perhaps get out more. :biggrin1:

Anyone up for a ponder?

[ChrisMClark]

I could have a ponder with you...but today I feel on the same intelectual level as a small satsuma; it's been a long week on early mornings, late nights, and very long hours between. Sleep deprivation is not my ally. Oh well, pay day a week on monday, and I'll have to order myself a nice box of something :)

[Big_T_UK]

Pet topic of mine so would love to ponder on this topic further but you may find my point of view to be hard to take, I love to play devils advocate.

T.

[TJCoro]

:nerd:Interesting questing, senor:cowboyic9:Robosto. But sadly, I'm not prone to :hmmmm:thinking about such a heady topic today....to busy focusing on my marvelous :41:Bolivar Bonitas and a fantastic cup of Mexican Joe.:happycoffee:

No doubt senor :couch2: missingwing will have plenty to say on the subject, being a most :idea:thoughtful lad and all! :wink:

:shocked: BJ,BJCoro

[misterbulgarin]

http://i49.tinypic.com/2vls17m.jpg

[Big_T_UK]

Holy cow!!!

What does one say to that? LOL

T.

[Kdot]

Even though I am offended by the "cartoon" posted by Mr B, I know some on this forum will agree with it. but who am I to say you cant do it, without offending others?

When does freedom of speech go too far? when it turns into hate and impacts the freedom of others? works both ways...

[TJCoro]

Even though I am offended by the "cartoon" posted by Mr B, I know some on this forum will agree with it. but who am I to say you cant do it, without offending others?

When does freedom of speech go too far? when it turns into hate and impacts the freedom of others? works both ways...


:pop2:

:shocked: BJ, BJCoro

[peanutpete]

Even though I am offended by the "cartoon" posted by Mr B, I know some on this forum will agree with it. but who am I to say you cant do it, without offending others?

When does freedom of speech go too far? when it turns into hate and impacts the freedom of others? works both ways...


i agree with every thing kdot said

what are you trying to say mr b, to me it looks like your tring to blame all the problems in the uk on emigrants if i am mistaken i apologise and please explain the cartoon

[Jimmeh]

My interpretation is that Mr B is not trying to offend, however provide an example to be discussed? However that is just my guess.

I know some people will be offended by this image, but the question is - should people be able to say things like this? if not, then is it an infingement on freedom of speech?

[Nuno Sa]

I don´t understand the cartoon like that, I saw last week a documentary on Mr Blair politics after the September 11 attacks, and how it lead to persecution of peoples rights to protest and an even more brutal persecution of foreigners specially Muslims a likes. I think that the British government as used the publics fear to create a kind of "police state", in that way limiting freedom of speech as never been since the WWII.

[moidoid]

They say that a picture says a thousand words. Clearly not true in this case. I just hope that the cartoon was not really as crass as it appears.

But it's a good example of where you draw the line. Where does legitimate criticism of religion or immigration become unnacceptable legally or socially? Should people lose their jobs because of what they say? I suspect that we must draw the line at incitement to violence on a limited number of issues - like race, gender and sexuality - which people are born into and can't change. Things that involve people being made to do things against their will must be out too.

Anything above this should probably be protected in law and just argued about. I think we need a free speech law since it is so under threat atm. In general I would say that I am in favour of more freedom rather than rules!

[moidoid]

I like Stephen Fry's response to people being offended by a cartoon, I think the Danish Motoons:

'You're offended? So f*****g what...'

I think this is a good general point and even though I may find a cartoon like the one above a bit silly, or offensive even, it is just a good starting point to argue about why it is so daft. I don't want to ban things I disagree with though.

Do people think that a cartoon like the one above incites racial hatred? It has some themes the BNP would like.

[TJCoro]

:argue:

Great Stuff, Here! :thumb:

:nerd: Goes right to the heart of the topic of the thread.:motz: :damnmate:

:41: Another fine, :hmmmm: thought-provoking thread by the big guy, senor :cowboyic9:Robusto*

:shocked: BJ, BJCoro



*:849:Now look who's suckin' up, ya' brown noser!


:lol: senor :couch2: will get a kick out of this! :pound:


:juggle: What's a "brown noser?"


:catsmoker: (Hurumph!) Have you boobs no shame?


:girl: Geee, I wish someone would "brown nose" me! :p

[moidoid]

:argue:

Great Stuff, Here! :thumb:

:nerd: Goes right to the heart of the topic of the thread.:motz: :damnmate:

:41: Another fine, :hmmmm: thought-provoking thread by the big guy, senor :cowboyic9:Robusto*

:shocked: BJ, BJCoro



*:849:Now look who's suckin' up, ya' brown noser!


:lol: senor :couch2: will get a kick out of this! :pound:


:juggle: What's a "brown noser?"


:catsmoker: (Hurumph!) Have you boobs no shame?


:girl: Geee, I wish someone would "brown nose" me! :p


Of course, another way to avoid offending anyone is to just make sure that no mofo ever UNDERSTANDS A WORD YOU SAY!!!!!!!:der:

[peanutpete]

please do not misunderstand my previous i would never want to limet free speech or stop anyone saying what they really fill but sometimes people have to be pulled up on things that may be offensive to some

[TJCoro]

Of course, another way to avoid offending anyone is to just make sure that no mofo ever UNDERSTANDS A WORD YOU SAY!!!!!!!:der:

:hmmmm:

:nerd: Apparently you do understand, senor mold! Very good! :thumb:

I writes 'em as is seez 'em! :heh:

:shocked: BJ, BJCoro


:849:Don't worry about senor mildew... I understandz ya'


:lol: Yeah! What Pappy said!


:juggle: I don't, but then I spend most of me time playin' with me balls!


:catsmoker: (Ahem!) Finally! One brave lad on this superlative forum has the gonads to speak up and say "the king has no cloths!"



:girl: Mmmmm! I like to meat this king!

[Robusto]

OK, boys. I'll try and say some things clearly. I, too, am whacked.

Some bio.

I voted for Mrs Thatcher in 1979 and now feel ashamed of that. I was only 20 and hadn't really honed my way of thinking.

I voted for Tony Blair in 1997. I had at that time been a Labour Party Member for a number of years. A couple of years after Blair had been in Number 10, I resigned from the Labour Party. I was disappointed in Blair. The adjustment to student tuition fees capped it for me.

I am now very disenchanted with Labour but consider the Tory mistakes to be far worse than the Labour ones. (I don't have an hour to elaborate). My world, my work, my mates are by-and-large left-of-centre - but not nightmarishly or slavishly so. I will probably vote Labour next year despite the mistakes. 99% sure I'm not going to swing Cameron's way...

I am probably more pig sick of the changes imposed on my job (teaching) than anything else. There's no escape from them bar the sex, music and cigars.

I should join a teachers' forum to discuss this (no bloody way) because it would take ages to explain what bugs me. In shorthand, I have to put into practice decisions which are ill-thought-out, impractical... and which nobody at the top believes in. Our inspection and accountability systems are Stalinist. Freedom of speech on this? There is nothing we can do about it. It was engendered in the Thatcher era. The first diktats arrived. It's got worse since Major and Blair and Brown kept fiddling with it. It wastes HUGE amounts of time. The benefits are questionable.

One is / I am powerless.

George Orwell wrote such common sense about political regimes. Again, I cannot deliver a lecture. The misuse of language to control is the main thing that smacks home for me. The false statistics. The slogans. The anti-intellectualism. The shite entertainment.

I feel like a man controlled, to be frank. And with the Net, all our communications are apparently recorded. BIG BROTHER? IRANU!

In the Clarkson rant, he mentions in a long list the war on smoking. The prohibitions. The Health and Safety-isms. These things are Orwellian in the extreme. I know Orwell was a man of the left, but these things apply left, right and centre.

In Cuba, the wall slogans inciting VICTORY were painted on run-down buildings. It was really amusing to see them. Again, Orwellian.

You're going to have to forgive the Orwell fixation but it is an astoundingly prophetic read and my political thinking is further down the road than I was in my 20s when I last read this book. It is, incidentally, the first book I decided to smoke over cigars and I'm enjoying the whole moment completely. Smoking and reading. One to add to the sex and music list.

I think the Nick Griffiths moment on Question Time is the one that made me seriously think that freedom of speech is not an automatic right.

My Dad was primed as a candidate for an ultra-right wing party following Enoch Powell's rivers of blood speech. I only found out about this when both my parents had died. I loved my Dad to bits, but I remember challenging him and arguing with him loads of times about this. He would have a go at Asians and black folk from his car window for no reason. I hated it - and this was not as a consequence of some trendy lefty Peace Studies teacher "indoctrinating" me at school. It was just an illogical and thick carry-on by him.

When Griffiths appeared on the box, he was already known for his racist views in recordings at meetings. What were the BBC doing to let him on? This was liberalism gone too far in my view. I've never thumped anyone for my beliefs on this but had I been near Television Centre, I'd have been one of the people protesting to keep him off the programme.

If any of us meet at future herfs, I don't need to be treated in a Don't Mention The War way about race. I do have a sense of humour of sorts...

If the BBC invite racist parties to the platform, how long before we get the cosy side of paedophilia in a chat show, for example? For that's the kind of company I think racism should be categorised with, personally.

So I thought I was in favour of free speech, but realise for racist bigots I'm not.

[Lee Nub]

I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for immigration (long long time ago, italian immigrants) and I have nothing against anyone. I have friends from many backgrounds, races etc. What I object to is being told what to do, I was ordered by my local council to take down my st georges flag a couple of years ago, when the football was on. Friends of mine have been told this year they can't send christmas cards to other co-workers anymore. That kind of thing is stupid, and its the little things like this that are amounting to problems in this country. At least we can get along as a small community with cigars as our bond

[peanutpete]

I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for immigration (long long time ago, italian immigrants) and I have nothing against anyone. I have friends from many backgrounds, races etc. What I object to is being told what to do, I was ordered by my local council to take down my st georges flag a couple of years ago, when the football was on. Friends of mine have been told this year they can't send christmas cards to other co-workers anymore. That kind of thing is stupid, and its the little things like this that are amounting to problems in this country. At least we can get along as a small community with cigars as our bond


lee you are of course right it is crazy that you can not fly the flag off st george or send xmas cards but i do not no one immigrant who minds these things it is always british people who make up these petty rules

[Lee Nub]

Exactly right mate

[moidoid]

Why on earth would anyone not be allowed to send Christmas cards?

I'm an atheist and I do!! Christmas is not just a religous festival - I can't see why anyone would get their pants in a twist about this.

[Lee Nub]

Yes its incredible, it has to be called seasons greetings or happy holidays now within the local authority.

[daverave999]

I come at this from what I consider to be a rather liberal take on things. Say what you like about whoever you like, but don't act on it. Freedom of speech includes the freedom to offend, but not to kill people. However, just because you believe you have freedom of speech doesn't mean you have to use it. Tact comes first I feel.

The whole Nick Griffin QT incident disgusted me however. Whatever I think the man deserves is irrelevant. The BNP have democratically-elected seats and therefore DO represent what some people think in this country. His vilification in the media reminds me of a quote from Noam Chomsky:

"The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate."

I only caught a little of QT that night but the audience and other panel members really played into the BNP's hands. It just looked like the entire program was set up to bully them. Two-minute hate anyone?

I feel unwelcome in 'my own country' here. Not because of immigrants but because of the Government that is supposed to represent me and their pandering to the Daily Mail generation. I dislike the fact that they wish to micromanage every section of our lives and think that they know best, when time and time again it is proved they don't. Then they seek to enforce that will through excessive surveillance.

I intend to move to Spain in the next few years. Even if it is the same, at least it will be warmer.

[daverave999]

The Health and Safety-isms.
Not singling you out Bryan but this is a pet hate of mine. These do NOT come from the HSE or H&S law. It's the over-zealous employees who do not know H&S law and risk-averse insurance companies that create this culture. Admittedly it is spurred on furiously by people suing left right and centre but the powers that be are not at fault here IMO.

[moidoid]

Dave, I very, very agree with you.:41:

[Robusto]

I come at this from what I consider to be a rather liberal take on things. Say what you like about whoever you like, but don't act on it. Freedom of speech includes the freedom to offend, but not to kill people. However, just because you believe you have freedom of speech doesn't mean you have to use it. Tact comes first I feel.

The whole Nick Griffin QT incident disgusted me however. Whatever I think the man deserves is irrelevant. The BNP have democratically-elected seats and therefore DO represent what some people think in this country. His vilification in the media reminds me of a quote from Noam Chomsky:

"The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate."

I only caught a little of QT that night but the audience and other panel members really played into the BNP's hands. It just looked like the entire program was set up to bully them. Two-minute hate anyone?

I feel unwelcome in 'my own country' here. Not because of immigrants but because of the Government that is supposed to represent me and their pandering to the Daily Mail generation. I dislike the fact that they wish to micromanage every section of our lives and think that they know best, when time and time again it is proved they don't. Then they seek to enforce that will through excessive surveillance.

I intend to move to Spain in the next few years. Even if it is the same, at least it will be warmer.

Excellent NC quotation, Dave. And seriously thought-provoking from NC.

Question Time WAS 2 Minute Hate. I've just read through one and that's an excellent comparison.

I'm afraid BNP 'sends' make me heave. They do make me angry.


doublethink came into play when the BNF had apparently lost AND won votes because of Griffin's appearance.

What to make of that?


The BNP guy was unattractive in manner and, of course, in thought. Please don't let a Blair/Cameron prettier one take his place. Or there'll be more representation.

H&S is a daily drag at work, even if I know it makes sense.
Web approval, form filling, retraining...

I used to think France needed some H&S counselling.
Then I visited Cuba...

[daverave999]

Some people may find this (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/apr/24/usa.comment) interesting to read, and this (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0977667/) interesting to watch.

[Robusto]

Some people will definitely be following those up.
I shall be pondering over that list of ten for some time.

[celsis]

OK, here's my take on this.

I feel that as a Scot, I should support the SNP. To be honest, I do support them in most of their endeavours and would vote for them. I do honestly believe that Scotland should be a self governing state and intend to work towards that when I'm home permanently in January.

As to immigrants, I think that we should allow immigrants to a certain level. I certainly believe that if you can prove that you are in extremem danger if you go home, you should be allowed to stay. If, however, you them go on to commit crime in this country, then you have forfeited your right to stay and should be deported, whatever your circumstances are. We have enough crims of our own without importing more!

As to reliigious tolerance; well, I'm areligious and regard religions as a philosophy. If you choose to follow that philosophy, you should be free to do so as long as you don't try and proselytise to me and others who don't want to know. I also believe that ALL philosophies are open to criticism, even my own. Should you feel that your religion/philosophy is too weak to withstand criticism, then either you are a very weak person or your philosophy is weak. Either way, it's up to you to defend your philosophy in the same way that it is criticised. If you feel you need to get on the streets to do so, then fair enough. Everybody has the right to protest. If, however, you then start calling for people's deaths because they had the nerve to criticise your philosophy/religion, then as far as I'm concerned, you have already lost the arguement and I'm no longer listening.

I don't care what religion you are, what your political stance is or how many wives you have. I just want you to contribute to society and if you can't do that, then eff off!

Sometimes we go to far to accommodate others. That's why I supported the right of the Danish newspapers to publish the cartoons and that's why I have no truck with the naysayers.

I could go on but I don't want to bore you further.

[cohibaIV]

Are there not a loads of British immigrants, or as we call our selves 'Ex Pats' all over the world???

All are welcome IMHO, but to work..not to take the piss out of our 'easy to take the piss out off' Welfare System..:rolleyes:

[Deano]

I think we're all agreed on that, it's just impossible to enforce it. Or at least it'll probably cost as much for the bureaucracy of implementation and action as it would be to let them in and free load.

[Deano]

And of course there's those who are political refugees, who then can't get work. How can we turn them away?

[khy86]

I think the whole system is bent, its too easy for immigrant nowadays. There should be a small limit on the amount to come over.