Mould or bloom?

[daverave999]

At the risk of looking like I'm trying to pimp my own blog, I'd like to draw your attention to my latest blog post (http://fistload.co.uk/blog/2010/01/17/cigar-mouldbloom-determination-using-uv-light/).

It seems to be quite a common question on cigar forums asking if it is mould or bloom on their cigars, with seemingly no definitive way of telling. That said, on Trevor's cubancigarwebsite (http://www.cubancigarwebsite.com/) it is mentioned that UV light can be used. This is the only place I can find it on the web, apart from places that refer to that. I think this is quite a major piece of info that gets overlooked way too much, so to corroborate it, I decided to have a play.

http://fistload.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/P1020820.jpg

This is a photo of some October 2007 PLPCs under UV light (365 nm). The even spread of the sparkles indicates to me that it is the beginnings of bloom, as mould tends to cluster. The reason you can only see a small region of them is the UV light is quite directional and not very bright.

I have also put a FdC Preferidos in a sealed plastic bag with some wet bog roll to try and get it to mould. I will then test it with the UV light to check whether the mould doesn't also fluoresce.

http://fistload.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/mould1-300x225.jpg

Further details to come. It shouldn't be too long going on my experience with mould. :rolleyes:

Hope someone finds this useful or interesting.

[monkey66]

Good stuff!

[HabanoSy]

Great stuff Dave... :top:

Looking forward to the results...

Cheers, HabanoSy

[cbob]

Aha!
Another "critical thinker".
I'm always a fan of someone who does his due diligence and takes some data before making an "educated guess". I'll be interested in your results.

Another thing to investigate:
Since "bloom" provides a great medium to support mould, and it's common to see a light mould developing on what was "bloom" when it was dry, I'm guessing that the mould will also show blue under UV. If you have access to a microscope, it's quite educational to look at both "bloom" and mould under moderate magnification.

[Arrow111]

ive heard of uv phenomena on mold vs. bloom but this is the first visual aid ive seen. thanks for the pictures and your time on this... i look forward to the final results.

[Leojvs]

I too am interested to see where this leads to. Will be good to know for future referance. Keep up the good work!

[Deano]

Yeah this is great stuff dave!

[daverave999]

Thanks folks! Glad someone else is finding my experiments useful.

Another thing to investigate:
Since "bloom" provides a great medium to support mould, and it's common to see a light mould developing on what was "bloom" when it was dry, I'm guessing that the mould will also show blue under UV. If you have access to a microscope, it's quite educational to look at both "bloom" and mould under moderate magnification.
Now you say that, I realise I should have tested the Preferidos with the UV light before I put it in the bag! :doh:
Thanks for pointing this out-I shall sacrifice another but test it first. They are from December 1998 so they may well have the odd crystal or two of bloom. Then again, there's none visible...

I'll see what I can do about a microscope. I've got a pocket microscope and a jeweller's loupe, so perhaps I could cobble something together with my digital camera or a webcam.

Thanks for the input!

[whisky77]

Interesting photographs Dave. Thanks for the info.

[satch]

We've got our own little science lab going on!

Good work, Dave.

[saggel]

Really cool things to know!!!!

[tippexx]

Good stuff Dave.

Given what you're doing, maybe one of these might come in useful?

http://www.apogeekits.com/magnifying_glasses.htm

[Lascaux]

christ soon it'll be all agar jelly and bunson burners, and then the pippets and acid will come out and there'll be havoc in the classroom!!

[peanutpete]

wow science at school was never this cool, if it was i might have gone to more than three lessons:stupido2:

[QueenCohiba]

Oooo, a science experiment, great thinking.

Can't wait to see the results either!

[macker89]

I've got my exercise book and my text book covered with wallpaper at the ready .:der:

Seriously though, very interesting stuff. Thanks Dave, look forward to the results

[daverave999]

Update: still no mould. :eek:

[peanutpete]

Update: still no mould. :eek:


what no mould what sort experiment is that, detention for you young man:biggrin1:

[SeanP]

Update: still no mould. :eek:


Not trying to be funny or smart or anything but are you looking to grow a specific mold (mould) on the cigars (such as a tobacco mold) or will any type do? If you are up for any kind of mold try putting a piece of bread in the bag with the cigar and wet paper.

Or I can put a cigar in my bag of bread here since it always seems to go moldy in 2 days :(

[daverave999]

Sean, I'm hoping to get the white mould that people often confuse with bloom. I'm under the impression that this is commonly caused by overhumidification (correct me if I'm wrong!) hence the way I'm going about it.

I suspect that different types of mould will behave differently under UV which is why I'm attempting to encourage the cigar to mould 'naturally' rather than inducing it using 'seed mould'. I'm hoping to prove that the white mould either doesn't fluoresce, or does so in green or something different to the blue I've already seen. Whatever results I get, I'll have learnt something from it.

[SeanP]

Figured you were going for that. I would suggest cranking the heat (+75F/24C) and hope you have some spores present. Maybe put it right above a radiator for a day or two and see if that works :confused:

I would also be interested to see if prolonged exposure to the UV light could also be utilized as a treatment for mold growth on cigars. I know UVC (100 nm–280 nm) banks are used in commercial air handlers to prevent mold growth but I'm not sure if they are species limited. If you have a UVC source handy it would be a nice addition.


Plus I would be up to split the millions we could make selling UV systems to collectors :rolleyes: Just imagine "Watch the plume sparkle while the mold is held at bay" :biggrin:

[daverave999]

I've put the bag on top of my monitor. If you don't see me for a few days, you know it's leaked. :p

If UVC kills mould, I'm not sure I want that shining on my cigars for too long! I suspect it would damage it in some way, like it does to skin. That said, maybe there are other methods of prophylaxis. Would anyone buy irradiated cigars? I'll have a look what wavelength the UV sources in work are too.

You've got me thinking now though. I may start inventing stuff.

[EDIT] Another thought-using UV as a mould preventative would only protect the outside.

[jkim05]

Sean, I'm hoping to get the white mould that people often confuse with bloom. I'm under the impression that this is commonly caused by overhumidification (correct me if I'm wrong!) hence the way I'm going about it.

I suspect that different types of mould will behave differently under UV which is why I'm attempting to encourage the cigar to mould 'naturally' rather than inducing it using 'seed mould'. I'm hoping to prove that the white mould either doesn't fluoresce, or does so in green or something different to the blue I've already seen. Whatever results I get, I'll have learnt something from it.

One problem I'm immediately seeing is that mold spores are killed very easily by UV light. Maybe you've killed all the mold so now it won't grow? Also, the mold that grows on tobacco would most likely be the same types of penicillium/aspergillus that grows on other moist substrates.

Mold is caused by overhumidification, but it can take time for it to develop as well. I would say just leave it alone in a cool, dark place with humidification and you should have no problem growing mold.

As for the UV damaging your cigars in some way, you probably have nothing to worry about, I don't think your light is strong enough to really kill much mold or bacteria, but who knows. Is the top of your monitor warm? Mold grows better at temps between 40F and 70F and RH higher than 70%, so if you can get those conditions you should be golden.

[daverave999]

The cigar I'm trying to spawn the mould on hasn't been exposed to UV deliberately by me, so that hopefully won't be an issue. Also, UV light shouldn't penetrate into the depths of the cigar, so only surface spores could be killed. I'm assuming they may also be present inside.

I'd also considered that Sclerotinia may be the white mould in addition to Penicillium, but I don't know much about fungus at all so this is all from googling. My monitor is a CRT, so warm on top. Are you suggesting that it could be too warm for mould to grow well?

The reference to damaging the cigar was more for SeanP's suggestion we go into business selling UV 'cloaks' to prevent cigar mould. ;)

I've also picked up another little UV keyring that emits at a longer wavelength (around 395 nm I think, but not specified this time), just to see if the mould will give any different results. This one won't work on UK banknotes whereas the first one does. It doesn't appear to show up the bloom anywhere near as well either.

[EDIT] Forgot to look at the UV lights in work though...

[nicwing]

This is a great thread, I am only just catching up after a couple of days away, now I am an avid fan.

I would like to make one suggestion however. I have always admired Dave for having one of the most time served avatars on the forum, however, hesitatingly I would like to suggest a change:
http://www.spookyweb.de/csi/files/csi_grissom_boden_1024.jpg

[daverave999]

Noooooooooooooooooo! Don't take my pinktopus!

[jkim05]

The cigar I'm trying to spawn the mould on hasn't been exposed to UV deliberately by me, so that hopefully won't be an issue. Also, UV light shouldn't penetrate into the depths of the cigar, so only surface spores could be killed. I'm assuming they may also be present inside.

I'd also considered that Sclerotinia may be the white mould in addition to Penicillium, but I don't know much about fungus at all so this is all from googling. My monitor is a CRT, so warm on top. Are you suggesting that it could be too warm for mould to grow well?

The reference to damaging the cigar was more for SeanP's suggestion we go into business selling UV 'cloaks' to prevent cigar mould. ;)

I've also picked up another little UV keyring that emits at a longer wavelength (around 395 nm I think, but not specified this time), just to see if the mould will give any different results. This one won't work on UK banknotes whereas the first one does. It doesn't appear to show up the bloom anywhere near as well either.

[EDIT] Forgot to look at the UV lights in work though...

Well, in general most of the spores are going to exist naturally in the air. The cigar is just the substrate or medium upon which the spores are able to grow. I would say your monitor is probably too warm and is preventing the mold from growing. The keys to growing mold are a cool, dark place, excess humidity and a suitable substrate, so you've got 2 of 3, now you just need to move it to a cool dark location.

[daverave999]

That hadn't occurred to me. This may be a problem as the FdC are cellophane-wrapped and I took it off then just put it in the bag. I did tell you I didn't know much about fungus. :D

Second time around then! I'll take the cigar out of the cello, test it with the UV light to see if there is anything visible already, then leave it in varying locations around the house for a day or so, then put it in the bag with the other one as that's already past smoking ever again. :cool:

Thanks very much for the input on this experiment folks. Incidentally there is still no mould on the original test cigar... I find it hilarious that I am struggling to get it to happen.

[jkim05]

That hadn't occurred to me. This may be a problem as the FdC are cellophane-wrapped and I took it off then just put it in the bag. I did tell you I didn't know much about fungus. :D

Second time around then! I'll take the cigar out of the cello, test it with the UV light to see if there is anything visible already, then leave it in varying locations around the house for a day or so, then put it in the bag with the other one as that's already past smoking ever again. :cool:

Thanks very much for the input on this experiment folks. Incidentally there is still no mould on the original test cigar... I find it hilarious that I am struggling to get it to happen.

Actually, I had a fiver of cello wrapped FdC's that had no mold and I took them out of the cello and, voila, in a couple days i saw mold. Not much of a problem, just wiped them down and they were fine.

[SeanP]

I like the Grissom suggestion :lol:


I'd also considered that Sclerotinia may be the white mould in addition to Penicillium, but I don't know much about fungus at all so this is all from googling.

Also take a look at Paecilomyces. It a white to yellow mold that is commonly found on grapes and canned fruit (a good source if you are looking for a donor). But then again you have over 100,000 species of mold with another million or so yet to be identified...kind of daunting!

I'm not a mycologist but have some experience with indoor molds, their causes, dispersal, remediation, etc. If you keep the temps below 85 you should see good growth. Above that and some molds won't grow too well. Below 65F/18C and down to about 40F/5C they will grow but the rate is much slower and I'm sure you don't want to wait 3 years.

Take your grannies damp cellar that doesn't get visited but twice a year (That wasn't a euphemism :puke:). Damp, musty, cold, and some old books have mold spots on them. If you take that same cellar and increase only the temperature and keep the humidity and air flow the same the colonized mold growth rate will increase 10 fold and new colonies will also start to flourish. Think scene out of Aliens...

As for the UV light killing the present molds spores...The light you used is not the correct wavelength to do so so you should be fine there.

The shorter wavelength light would kill them but you would run the risk of bleaching the wrapper during long exposures. But it would be interesting to see how long it would take to get the wrapper to bleach compared to how long the mold could survive under the UV light. If there is no cross over (i.e mold spores die at 2 mins and wrapper bleaches at 30 hours) then you have a marketable product on your hands :thumb:.

[jkim05]

I like the Grissom suggestion :lol:



Also take a look at Paecilomyces. It a white to yellow mold that is commonly found on grapes and canned fruit (a good source if you are looking for a donor). But then again you have over 100,000 species of mold with another million or so yet to be identified...kind of daunting!

I'm not a mycologist but have some experience with indoor molds, their causes, dispersal, remediation, etc. If you keep the temps below 85 you should see good growth. Above that and some molds won't grow too well. Below 65F/18C and down to about 40F/5C they will grow but the rate is much slower and I'm sure you don't want to wait 3 years.

Take your grannies damp cellar that doesn't get visited but twice a year (That wasn't a euphemism :puke:). Damp, musty, cold, and some old books have mold spots on them. If you take that same cellar and increase only the temperature and keep the humidity and air flow the same the colonized mold growth rate will increase 10 fold and new colonies will also start to flourish. Think scene out of Aliens...

As for the UV light killing the present molds spores...The light you used is not the correct wavelength to do so so you should be fine there.

The shorter wavelength light would kill them but you would run the risk of bleaching the wrapper during long exposures. But it would be interesting to see how long it would take to get the wrapper to bleach compared to how long the mold could survive under the UV light. If there is no cross over (i.e mold spores die at 2 mins and wrapper bleaches at 30 hours) then you have a marketable product on your hands :thumb:.

Very interesting info. Thanks. :beer:

[daverave999]

Would you believe it? I cannot get these bloody cigars to start growing mould!

I left the second one out in the open for half a day to try and get some spores on it. At this rate I think I will have to stick something in there as seed mould. I may try a third and roll it around the floor in the utility room but I'm starting to become a bit weirded out by these anti-fungal cigars.

[eggopp]

I wonder if you placed a small mushroom in the bag if that will have any effect? afterall a mushroom is living and dies very slowly and as mould i think is part of the fungus family perhaps a mushroom will speed up or contribute to your experiment.. just a thought, one that can clearly be dismissed

[daverave999]

MaledettoToscano has suggested using a piece of cheese in a similar way on my blog, and SeanP suggested bread above. I like the idea of a mushroom farm on a cigar. :D
I don't know what else to do really. Anyone got any suggestions where I can expose them to spores? I find it hard to believe my house is low on the spore count.

[tippexx]

I think molds are inherent to their host Dave. They will grow even in sterile conditions. Possible what you need is a cigar patient that is already susceptible. I believe you know someone who's got one.

[Lascaux]

growing mushroom farms on cigars :eek:
now with the right type of mushroom the outcome could be......... mind-blowing.:biggrin1:

[SeanP]

Are you keeping them in the dark? :dontknow: And I would like to retract my previous bread comment and replace it with the grape. I think you will get a more compatible mold (Paecilomyces) on grapes then what you would get on bread (Penicillium).

[nicwing]

Man, this thread is turning into a biology lesson, I love it.

Will there be high resolution microscope pictures of the mould, I do hope so!

I believe you can get USB microscopes now, plugging one of those babies into Skype we could have a live Mouldskypecast. Do you think Bill Oddie is well enough to host it?

[EugeneSax]

And I would like to retract my previous bread comment and replace it with the grape.

Don't grape skins also have (live) yeast spores on them? If so your cigars' tobacco could go through a secondary (or tertiary) fermentation - with potentially pleasant effects ;-)

[PoohBore]

I believe you can get USB microscopes now,

Yes they do had a leaflet from Maplin yesterday http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=222945&source=1 £30.


:pop2:

[nicwing]

Yes they do had a leaflet from Maplin yesterday http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=222945&source=1 £30.


:pop2:

I feel a whip round coming on!

[daverave999]

We have mould. I'll test with the UV light tomorrow if I get time.

Attached are some pics. They were taken through the bag so some show reflection.

[MaledettoToscano]

Hurray! Really look forward to see how these compare under the UV light.

[daverave999]

Me too. I didn't want to do it tonight as it was a complete pain in the arse setting the camera up last time, with the tripod and playing with exposure and sensitivity settings on the camera when I don't really know what I'm doing. So, I'll do it when I have more time. Wednesday at the latest, though I will keep my eye on it so it doesn't go nuts. :D

[EDIT] I could just look myself but the whole point is pictures for everyone on the web.

[daverave999]

OK this isn't great but it's a start. Unfortunately, on removing the cigar from the bag I brushed the mould slightly so it went flat. Also, the lighting isn't great on this video so it's difficult to see. That said, it is reasonably obvious from the video that nothing is fluorescing under the UV.

eQnXSYN4XGU

The first light is the 365 nm that caused the bright fluorescence in my first post. The second is the near-UV torch. Because of the increased amount of blue (visible) light in the second one, you can actually see the mould, but note this is not glowing like in my initial picture, it's just visible because it is white against brown.

I've put the cigar back into the bag and I'm going to leave it until I get a lot of mould so there's no ambiguity. Though at the moment, it's looking good that I've proved what I intended to ie. bloom fluoresces under UV, white mould doesn't when specifically 365 nm light is used.

[68TriShield]

Very interesting experiment Doctor :smile:

[SeanP]

Very nice work Dave! Love watching your experiments and hope to see some more in the future. :rock:

[skyhigh]

Great experiment Doctor Dave but theres still no way you're shoving anything up my rear end in the name of science.:eviltongue: what do you think this is Brainiac ..

[nicwing]

DaveRave, the Forum's official Boffin:

http://www.ncl.ac.uk/chemistry/assets/photos/boffin.gif

[tippexx]

I feel a whip round coming on!


Or we could just save up and book Dave a slot on the Hadron Collider in Switzerland .... see what happens to his mould particles then .... send them all back in time and identify the original leaves and plant they came off. Then we can do as Rok says:- KILL IT TO DEATH!

[rokkitsci]

Or we could just save up and book Dave a slot on the Hadron Collider in Switzerland .... see what happens to his mould particles then .... send them all back in time and identify the original leaves and plant they came off. Then we can do as Rok says:- KILL IT TO DEATH!

Hell with that.

Send 'em to me; I'll smoke anything.