Cigars as investments?

[peanutpete]

sorry to but in, but this is an open forum we should not have to take it to PM if it is about something we can all learn/know more about
Monkey as i remember it was more tahn a dram or two (but i dont remember much)

[Simon Bolivar]

+1 I agree you have the wrong end of the stick David. Whilst there are items listed non EU resisdents only, I have brought non-EMS vintage cigars at Mitch's cigar auction, then paid duty on the sale & I have a British passport.

[DavidD]

I really hope this doesn't sound rude, honestly, but none of that is true. I'll have time later for a longer explanation if nobody else helps out but I have to run right now.

Ryan - I would be interested to hear your expanded view but perhaps it might be as well to PM me as I certainly don't want to bore fellow Forum members with UK Tax Law. I'm sure we can have a useful exchange.

[monkey66]

Ryan - Ask yourself why certain lots in bona fide cigar auctions (CGars November 2012 auction included) are endorsed 'Not available to UK bidders'. Ask yourself why, when attempting to enter modern lots of cigars into auction the first question a potential vendor will be asked is 'Do they have an EMS label ?'. It's all about UK duty ! Perhaps you don't buy at bona fide auctions - many people don't.

I would suggest taking a pause and waiting for Ryans full reply. He is a well respected expert in the cigar world ...and a great man to share a dram or two with

[Sligub]

Ryan - Ask yourself why certain lots in bona fide cigar auctions (CGars November 2012 auction included) are endorsed 'Not available to UK bidders'. Ask yourself why, when attempting to enter modern lots of cigars into auction the first question a potential vendor will be asked is 'Do they have an EMS label ?'. It's all about UK duty ! Perhaps you don't buy at bona fide auctions - many people don't.

Not available to UK bidders is because there being stored at a Germany LCDH. Check out the cgars auction website and you will see many lots with no ems sticker including non UK RE that are avaliable to UK bidders.

[DavidD]

Ryan - Ask yourself why certain lots in bona fide cigar auctions (CGars November 2012 auction included) are endorsed 'Not available to UK bidders'. Ask yourself why, when attempting to enter modern lots of cigars into auction the first question a potential vendor will be asked is 'Do they have an EMS label ?'. It's all about UK duty ! Perhaps you don't buy at bona fide auctions - many people don't.

[Ryan]

Selling wine and selling cigars are quite different. Anyone can buy wines at auction but many lots of cigars may not be sold to UK citizens. Also the auctioneers who hold bona fide cigar auctions can only offer EMS labelled cigars post embargo. EU labelling is void at UK auctions because the UK rate of duty has not been paid. So, at the end of the day, if you want to buy a box of 25 top of the range cigars of post embargo manufacture, you will need a non UK passport.

I really hope this doesn't sound rude, honestly, but none of that is true. I'll have time later for a longer explanation if nobody else helps out but I have to run right now.

[DavidD]

Selling wine and selling cigars are quite different. Anyone can buy wines at auction but many lots of cigars may not be sold to UK citizens. Also the auctioneers who hold bona fide cigar auctions can only offer EMS labelled cigars post embargo. EU labelling is void at UK auctions because the UK rate of duty has not been paid. So, at the end of the day, if you want to buy a box of 25 top of the range cigars of post embargo manufacture, you will need a non UK passport.

[Simon Bolivar]

See Corney & Barrow website, legitimate UK based company, won Queen's Adwards for export & have been buying en-primuer for yrs. I have made a few bob this way & like cigars, any profits are tax free as wine & cigars are classed by HMRC as a wasting chatel; worth remembering. The one legal way we have of avoiding tax on cigars in this country; uness you know any others?

[DavidD]

It's all well and good stockpiling 'investment' cigars but when the time comes for disposal you're often faced with putting your stock into auction. If a box of what you have has doubled in value since you bought them you will have to deduct auctioneer's commission, VAT and often misc. hidden charges which, in most cases, can account for 30% or more of the hammer price. The result is that you don't get quite what you expected. And that's after the tlc you've given the cigars to keep them prime. Not always worth the effort !

[Eddie]

Wine investments are a dodgy area IMO, There have been a couple of fraudulent companies exposed in the recent past. I suppose if you store the cigars yourself then the only risk is the market exposure.

In bonded warehouses etc... if you don't hold it you don't own it.

[Sludgie]

I have a box of Por Larranga Magnificos that I paid ?200 for a box of 10 cigars three years ago. The price on that box has nearly doubled, so there is scope there. All comes down to supply and demand of course, and finding someone willing to pay the higher prices for boxes that are becoming increasingly rare.

[DavidD]

An interesting question, David. The market for rare cigars is small and tight and miniscule when compared with the world of fine wines. If you follow prices realised at the major auction houses you can identify trends but buyers are at an international level. There are many lots of 'middle of the road' cigars moving from auction to auction but the very best goes to a small number of buyers and never see the light of day again. There's nothing wrong with buying good vintage cigars today and ageing them. They will make a premium but you won't become a millionaire at that level.

[Puff Scotty]

Hi Dave, this has been discussed on the forum several times with mixed opinions..have a search mate, loads already there...

[Davex]

Does the above happen, with wine i can buy a case, leave it a bonded warehouse, then sell it several years later at a profit, if the price falls i can drink it.
Is there a similar market in rare cigars?