Counterfeit Montecristo GR's and Cohiba 1966's...

[monkey66]

If legitimate vendors are selling fake Cuban cigars, should we as purchasers be looking to form a collective to group buy and legally Import from Cuba to cut out the chance of fakes?.

lmfao





ok, but lets pretend for a second that that was a serious suggestion....

Depends on how you want to define 'legitimate'. This was a sale by Spanish grey-market seller. Pretty sure H and F will tell you they have never sold a counterfeit stick and this is why you should always buy from them. You pay a bit more but your quality is guaranteed kind of thing.

You would not be able to import cigars from Cuba to the UK as H and F own the franchise for the UK (unless they allowed you). I think there are exclusive distributorship's for nearly every global market.

It is this monopoly (and govt's taxation policy) that leads to us chasing cheap prices, and lets us fall for fakes and cons.

But if you want to start a cigar distribution business go for it (that's what's called when a few people get together to perform an act of commerce, not a 'collective'). You would not be the first that started off as an enthusiast and that led to them getting into the industry, some quite successfully. However if your goal is to have great, original smokes, legitimately imported to the UK, at duty-free prices we all know you will be disappointed.

Perhaps we should stop pretending that cheap cigars is some sort of mission or human right. At the end of the day Cuban Cigars are a luxury product which have nothing to do with the real issues in the world. This is a pay-to-play hobby and all of us who smoke cigars (burning expensive leaves flown all over the world) are to some degree frivolousness and selfish. To then spend ones energy bitching about the price seems kind of shallow to me.


....but you were just having a laugh, right?

[monkey66]

Latest speculation seems to be that the warranty seals were real but stolen. This then led to a change in design. Still after seeing Alibaba it won't matter soon. Based just on what's available on Google I'm convinced there is exact replica packaging available today.

Pete, you have nothing to worry about. All the boys say your nuts have a unique taste

[peanutpete]

Should Pete. Fake wine got into the legit UK supply chain earlier this year and ended up on Tesco shelves. Their buyers had been duped and cases on top of pallets were genuine and taste samples had been taken from them, the cases beneath were full of fake bottle .... and it wasn't discovered until a customer who knew his stuff contacted Tesco with his reservations about the wines authenticity.

thats right i remember that case f...k i wonder if any one is counterfeiting my nuts

[tippexx]

Bloody hell this scary,i wonder if we should also be carefull about our whisky,wines etc

Should Pete. Fake wine got into the legit UK supply chain earlier this year and ended up on Tesco shelves. Their buyers had been duped and cases on top of pallets were genuine and taste samples had been taken from them, the cases beneath were full of fake bottle .... and it wasn't discovered until a customer who knew his stuff contacted Tesco with his reservations about the wines authenticity.

[peanutpete]

Bloody hell this scary,i wonder if we should also be carefull about our whisky,wines etc

[TJCoro]

JLP is ABSOLUTELY correct. The errors are almost schoolboy. Any halfway decent graphic designer could set up everything necessary for print repro (bands, cartons, laser) exactly. I know I could do it.

Wow! I did not know you were a halfway decent graphic designer.

Good to know! :thumb;

Bag Boy

Haha! Zip it, bag boy! You're disrupting the flow of this most excellent thread.




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[Puff Scotty]

I think Monk's just had a heart attack 'cos there's thousands of Torcedors in China too!

LMAO .... Flippin' TONS of tobacco as well...

[tippexx]

As for legality in China nobody actually gives a shit, just don't upset the applecart!

I think Monk's just had a heart attack 'cos there's thousands of Torcedors in China too!

[Puff Scotty]

I,ve seen up close Montecristo, Cohiba, Partagas, RYJ and several other brands packaging being manufactured in China, not just packaging but humidors, lighters,gifts of all sorts.
I can and will say again that they manufacture different qualities for different markets...I have seen Cohiba bands by the thousand that scream fake at you next to a stack that was Hmmm passable..next to a stack that IMO,was 100%....I visited 4 factories over a course of 3 days that were 100's of miles apart but all 'related' in some fashion..& nothing was hidden.
I was shown this as a reassurance of supply chain efficiency which I'd had severe doubts about...& my colleague, Chinese lad who has a Cambridge Masters Degree in business, knew I could relate to cigars...
As for legality in China nobody actually gives a shit, just don't upset the applecart!

[tippexx]

it would be hard to call them 'passing off' ...unlike the old glass top-boxes.

Exactly Monk, it creates a 'mud' of unsurety which lawyers can operate within to string things out as long as possible. Notice with those Chinese tubes, they aren't called Cohiba Tubes, they're called Cohiba 'style' and with close inspection I bet there's just enough wriggle room to escape a charge of counterfeiting.

Which is how the dodgy factories operate. They make, sell and provide proper invoices to tabacs or whoever want's to buy their cigars. They don't pretend to be Habanos SA and they don't pretend that their products are Cuban cigars. The onus then is left on the tabacs or whoever to be candid with the end customer about what it is they are in turn are selling on ..... the chances are they won't.

[monkey66]

It beggars the question why do they not go legit if they can get Cuban leaf and the resulting cigars seem to be of marketable quality, which would be a long term business plan rather than making a quick buck and run.

They already have brands across Asia but it is not the same as the international brand counterfeiting business.

[tippexx]

Because the US desire for forbidden fruit far outweighs the requirement of another NC brand in the marketplace.

[monkey66]

JLP is ABSOLUTELY correct. The errors are almost schoolboy. Any halfway decent graphic designer could set up everything necessary for print repro (bands, cartons, laser) exactly. I know I could do it.

The cigars are fake, possibly cuban tobacco and most likely produced in a Factory in Central America. These factories operate openly and will often call themselves Davidoff123, Cohiba1966 or similar. They operate during the space of time prior to Habanos SA discovering them and throughout the period needed to get them into court and dealt with, which in Central America can be a long time. They make no bones about what they produce and sell and the smokes can be found in tobacconists from Mexico to Patagonia.

The printing (mistakes) are not mistakes, they are wriggle room and just enough to change the accusation of 'counterfeiting' to 'passing off'. Counterfeiters found guilty go to prison. Businesses found guilty of 'passing off' have pay fines and compensate the claimant for loss of profits. Habanos do invariably win, but by then all money has vanished out of the guilty business, which then goes into liquidation and closes down on a Friday only to open it's doors the following Monday with a new name and the same owners.

Monk, believe me. If the Chinese ever turn their full printing skills to Habanos stuff finding the differences would be almost impossible.

Great post Arf, real insight into the reasons behind the 'differences'.

Although looking at these MGR's and 1966's it would be hard to call them 'passing off' ...unlike the old glass top-boxes.

Looking at the info on-line it cannot be a matter of if, but when the Chinese start (if they have not already ).

[JOAO LA PEZ]

It beggars the question why do they not go legit if they can get Cuban leaf and the resulting cigars seem to be of marketable quality, which would be a long term business plan rather than making a quick buck and run.

[tippexx]

Interesting. In your experience would printers turn a blind eye to the clear counterfeiting? Also how easy is it to reproduce the warranty labels with the fine detail and holograms?

Sent from happy, clappy, tappy.

Habanos made a rapid and unexpected change to hologram/seal late 2010 early 2011. It coincided almost exactly with the period when the factories were put off limit to tourists and visitors. I think it's not impossible that there was a serious investigation going on and that a lot of seals had gone missing.