Aging advice

[ValeTudoGuy]

Some great knowledge coming out in this thread! It seems like every product is losing real "quality" hand over fist in this modern world.

[Ryan]

There's probably a very obvious answer for the next question.


So, how do they know what it is other than tobacco, by that I mean destined for which blends for which cigars. If Cuban cigars are made from just random tobacco, where does the specific brand differentiation come from?

It's a good question and the answer isn't obvious at all.
Tobacco is differentiated by sorting house. I've been told there are 22 in San Juan y Martinez for example. I've only seen one of them.
So that's where traceability starts.
When the bales arrive at the factory they have been marked with codes showing the sorting house, year and other information about the tobacco. The blender makes the blends from there.

[tippexx]

When tobacco arrives at a sorting house from a farm it is all mixed together, so when it reaches the factory, there is no traceabilty which farm or barn it came from, only which sorting house. No one in the factory knows which tobacco has been cured completely naturally or with artificial help.

There's probably a very obvious answer for the next question.

So, how do they know what it is other than tobacco, by that I mean destined for which blends for which cigars. If Cuban cigars are made from just random tobacco, where does the specific brand differentiation come from?

[Moon Dancer]

When tobacco arrives at a sorting house from a farm it is all mixed together, so when it reaches the factory, there is no traceabilty which farm or barn it came from, only which sorting house. No one in the factory knows which tobacco has been cured completely naturally or with artificial help.

Commercial pressures on growers for more tobacco per hectare, introduction of newer seed types and soil suplements, quicker drying methods, notwithstanding the rush to get rolling, asap, has imho, taken it's toll on the natural time honoured methods which produced such wonderful cigars

Cuba needs to develope more land for additional production if that is really what is needed, rather than intensive growing methods. Moreover allowing leaves longer storage / maturing time as they previously did. I get rather suspecious when I read a new LE or something, has got a 3 year old wrapper. I just wonder how old the wrappers are around the run of the mill stuff. Not very old, me thinks In my younger days I can never recall opening a box that had any ammonia smell, it was always a rich mature tobacco smell. A box of Bolivar was once described to me as ? A Symphony of Golden Tobacco Smells? The only stress was wondering how many sticks would be tight or plugged (thankfully now thats in the past ) Waste not want not, my father sometimes broke the offending stick up and rubbed it into his Walnut Plug pipe tobacco. Merchants did not released boxes before readinness, confidently knowing the leaf had been properly marured.

Something tell's me that if Cuba is not careful the commercial men of the kick and rush method for at least standard cigars will gradully manifest into a NC signature, albiet with a Cuban label. Perhaps with North Amercia in mind

From Ryans factory observations as above, and past and present box code experiences, etc, a much higher degree of clarity and transparency should be mandatory- Perhaps a warning notice alongside to the health warning- The contents of this box may not be as labeled

[tippexx]

I mean, how many of us blokes actually have the funds (or patience) to buy and store boxes of fine puros for 5-20 years anyway.....

Or the years TJ .... 20 would take me to 85, could be a bit of a waste.

[TJCoro]

The Average Bloke

Example: Buy box of APR 2014 RyJ PC. Put away till 2017, smoke 'at prime' between 2017 and 2021. And for continuance remember to buy another box in 2018.

I like the way you think, muchacho.

Most of us will probably view this as good news. I mean, how many of us blokes actually have the funds (or patience) to buy and store boxes of fine puros for 5-20 years anyway.....well, except maybe don TJ and senor stevietheboy.


Perro, el Perro

haha! It's just a theory, dowg face....so keep yer panties dry!

[tippexx]

My guess Ryan, and it is just a guess, is the plant in being made disease resistant has, or is loosing that special something that gave Cuban tobacco it's (exclusive) long term character and reliability for ageing. I'm not a botanist or an agronomist, or maybe I've just bought all the wrong boxes, but something isn't right.

Not that it matters. If people follow what JJ Fox and RMN advise there (hopefully) shouldn't be any issue with regular production cigars.

Example: Buy box of APR 2014 RyJ PC. Put away till 2017, smoke 'at prime' between 2017 and 2021. And for continuance remember to buy another box in 2018.

[Ryan]

..My contention is that my boxes and cigars pre 2002 are seemingly ageing well and smoking well, whereas boxes post 2006 are not doing as well, and that some LE and RE are declining so markedly I doubt they will ever come back...

While I'm not disagreeing with you at all, to be honest I have not thought about it enough while smoking cigars to be able to give a good opinion. I do have my own opinion but I would only be guessing, really.
Why do you think that is happening? I got into a long thread on cA about this, with some very long posts.
While it might seem that I am being contentious, I'm really not trying to be. I would just like to find out the mechanism for whatever change might have happened. I haven't been able to figure out a possible cause yet.
Have you heard what it might be that has changed or would you hazard a guess? Is it strains, "cooking" the tobacco, longer fermentation, different blends etc?
The next time I go to Cuba I plan on spending a day or two in a sorting house/fermentation house, to see what goes on.
Having some idea on what might have changed could help steer me in the right direction when asking questions..


Edit. And sorry, to be clear, I'm not saying that there has been no change. it's just for the life of me I can't figure out what it might be.
Over the years, on different forums, I have seen people say it must be that the tobacco is "cooked" in the barns. i.e. artificially raising the temperature with a heater(s) and adjusting the humidity to cure the tobacco faster.
While some farmers use heaters in their barns to help curing along (I've been in one and I've seen the flues of a few more), this cannot be the reason, as most farmers still use the plain old fashioned wooden barns with windows and doors they open and close to adjust humidity and temperature. I've been in dozens of those.
When tobacco arrives at a sorting house from a farm it is all mixed together, so when it reaches the factory, there is no traceabilty which farm or barn it came from, only which sorting house. No one in the factory knows which tobacco has been cured completely naturally or with artificial help.

[tippexx]

Good call Sheppsea. I think it might be best for the Thread to recap on the first post. We've had this snippit for almost 5 years, so a bit late, but not a bad thing to be discussing Stevieboys post now.

Just received an intersting bit of info in an email from JJFox. What do you lot think about aging smokes?

About Aged Cigars

Initial aging after rolling is essential to allow the cigar to dry and stabilise. This greatly improves the flavour, as well as greatly improving the burn and draw. Stabilisation typically takes only 4 to 8 weeks depending on the ambient climate, however allowing your cigars to age even longer will allow the flavours of the blend meld and mellow into a more harmonious smoke. A cigar's complexities and nuances will be greatly enhanced with long term aging in a proper environment.
The younger the cigar the more drastic the impact time has upon it; 3 months can mean a world of difference to a freshly rolled cigar, wheras 3 months are negligible when dealing with 5 year old sticks.
* 2-5 Years - These are the peak years for most cigars. Typically the stronger, full-bodied cigars age better over a longer duration. This is why Bolivar Fuertes, Ashton VSGs, and many Havanas are all considered cigars that age beutifully. The same logic applies to cigars of substantial strength regardless of their country of origin.
* 7-10 Years - This is about the maximum aging time on almost all cigars. After this point most cigars become too mellow and too pale for popular enjoyment.
The best way to determine the impact time on cigars is to smoke one occasionally from an aging box and to take detailed tasting notes.


To my mind what JJ Fox are saying makes sense. Ally this with RMNs recommended minimum ageing times (usually 3 to 5 years depending on vitola) and the average window for 'best smoking' is 3 to 7 years after the box date. Without doubt, and as they get older, cigars do mellow and loose flavour intensity. My contention is that my boxes and cigars pre 2002 are seemingly ageing well and smoking well, whereas boxes post 2006 are not doing as well, and that some LE and RE are declining so markedly I doubt they will ever come back.

Interesting to note that JJs include some top end NCs in their list of cigars to age. Input from US BOTL suggests that NC with thicker wrappers age well, but as to which those are I've not a clue.

[sheppsea]

Going back to topic , considering how random this thread revival was its turned into a really interesting read - thanks Jeremy!

[ValeTudoGuy]

Jeremy is actually a 70 year old internet predator!

[TJCoro]

Peace Restored!

peace Elpy... Peaaace!
Ol' PJ is already carrying on your legacy. not to mention Ray Gay.....

Right! Prior ruling remains in force...regardless of what that Boob RJ says...please respect Chico Butterednutz small request.

El P

Haha! They keep on coming, but they never learn. Go in Peace Chico...go in Peace El P!

Hey RJ! El Perro said "small"

[butternutsquashpie]

Yes,yes...congrats on you achievement!
HEY! WAIT A Minute! Trying to shift the topic away from you, I see. Well nice try, but I got you!

peace Elpy... Peaaace!
Ol' PJ is already carrying on your legacy. not to mention Ray Gay.....

[TJCoro]

Very Sneaky!

happy 1.5K post Momar!!

no idea what you're trying to point out... but have a great useless milestone!

Now i'm just waiting for the Coros' 8000.......

Yes,yes...congrats on you achievement!


HEY! WAIT A MINUTE! Trying to shift the topic away from you, I see. Well nice try, but I got you!


Perro, el Perro


Haha! I suggest you revoke your previous ruling HERE!

[butternutsquashpie]

http://www.ukcigarforums.com/showthr...Petite-Coronas

post 24

happy 1.5K post Momar!!

no idea what you're trying to point out... but have a great useless milestone!

Now i'm just waiting for the Coros' 8000.......