Ratings Rant

[Matt Wall]

Hope everyone is well and enjoying that Friday feeling; have a great weekend everyone! But now for something completely different...

After watching a few YouTube cigar reviews last night it got me thinking about the way people review cigars. I'll set the scene first.
I have now got to the point where I tried quite a few Cubans and learnt things about each brand that only comes with experience, however I realised that I have only ever tried two New-World cigars. Now I try to not be biased reviewer when it comes to cigars so after watching and reading many many reviews about how good Padron cigars are I thought I had to take the plunge and buy one. Now these sticks aren't cheap; with their premium line cigars you'd be able to buy a Cohiba Robusto and a Bolivar Belicosos Finos and still have change for a McFlurry! But in the end I plumped for a Padron Series 1926 No. 9 Maduro and a smaller Padron 1964 Anniversary Principe Maduro (why they don't just call them the Padron No. 9 or the Padron No. 31 in whatever ascending order they choose I do not know; they probably have the most confusing line of cigars to a newcomer that is produced today, but that's by-the-by).
Anyway so those two cigars are on the way to me to try out, but my main annoyance comes whilst I was choosing the cigar. I didn't want to spend ?20/?25 on a cigar without knowing generally what flavours it produces or how well constructed they normally are, etc. To do this you have the option of reading Cigar Aficionado, Puff Cigar Reviews, Cigar Inspector, Thompson Cigars to see what people generally think. The problem comes when you try to distinguish between all the Padrons to see which is generally better. This however is practically impossible as everyone uses a 100 point scale for rating. Have a look on the Cigar Aficionado website when you get chance and see how many 93 point cigars there are. There's loads of them, particularly Padrons as apparently they are highly rated.
So how can you tell which is better? Well you can't, you have to read every review before you can make a decision, but a lot of people don't have time for that, they just want to see if their choice of new cigar is rated higher than their current favourite Ramon Allones for example. I'm sure that's probably a 93 cigar as well come to think of it.

So basically my point is why do we have a massive 100 scale if 90% of cigars are within 3 points of each. Between 91 and 94 there must be at least 300 cigars. If you're saying most things are 93 then what's the point of a scale with very small increments?! I think that the whole scale should be used: 0 for umsmokeable, 50 for average and 100 for perfection; i.e. Guantanamera sits at 19, H Upmann at 82, Por Larranaga (for me) is at 95, Cohiba at 92 or whatever. I feel people would be able to make a better decision about buying a new range of cigars if the rating system was not so closely packed at the upper end, it's become a 80-100 point system rather than a 0-100 point system as it should be.

This thread you're currently reading probably isn't for those who have tried every cigar going or who have lots of money - as they'd just buy it and chuck it out if it was terrible. This rant is mainly for those with less money and want to experiment with different brands etc.

Anyway, rant over you'll be pleased to know
Hope you have a rant-free weekend!
Happy smoking,
Matt




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[sheppsea]

Its not the first time this has been mentioned and I agree that the 100 point scale is flawed, and also find it difficult to believe someone can really tell 1/100th of a different between two cigars.

There is a thread someone discussing the scoring systems people on here use, if I remember I'll try to find it when I get in tonight

[tippexx]

and also find it difficult to believe someone can really tell 1/100th of a different between two cigars.

They can't, but would like to believe they can and have you believe they can too. Most couldn't tell the difference between two ends of the same cigar let alone the difference between a hundred or so vitola.

All that really matters is that you enjoy the cigar you're smoking and that you felt the price was fair. If you didn't, don't buy one again. Trying a new cigar is always a bit of a lottery, some so-called highly rated I've not liked, some more humble I've thought were excellent. The 'points' if you like are the result of an interaction between your nose and your brain, there yours and they're unique and it is only with those tools that you can make an opinion, don't worry about anyone else, only yours counts. The downside of course is it's much less risky to try cigars which cost ten quid as opposed to UK expensive Padrons.

[JoeyGunz]

It's flawed because it's presented as just one number, you want the breakdown of how the 100point score is put together.

[Simon Bolivar]

Hi Matt, Please stick with this group! We go through our slow patches but we need your insight & enthusiasm to re-energize us. Many things have been discussed before but new members join all the time & many are relative new cigars smokes & so have questions similar to your own. Cigar scoring systems have been debated but always worth raising again. Firstly, why score cigars/ Doesn't it take some of the pleasure & mystique always from an highly personal experience? One of the best reasons must be to answer questions like yours. You want a reference point to help you chose a new cigar. When you walk into a cigar shop & the choice is bewildering, where would you start? Well advertising probably would help us recognize a few labels & cigar mags have their own ratings & CA mag is known for favouring American & non-Cuban brands (shockingly, from their advertisers).
I have revealed my system a couple of times before but to answer your question about the dreaded 93, I have only 93 x4 scores from over 300 different Havana vitolas (I don't bother adding my Non Cubans to this list, although I do note them in my diary).
My Scores are divided into 5 groups, Appearance, Draw/Ash/Smoke, Flavour (most important for me), value (many think this should be irrelevant but I live in the real world & expect value for money) & Overall Satisfaction. Each group is marked out of 10 & then the total dbled to get score out of 100. The proof that it works for me, not saying it would for others but gives you somewhere to start & modify your own system), is that when I smoke a vitola I haven't had for yrs, I re-try & re-score & as long as the cigar was a good representative of the vitola my score nearly always turns out to be within one or two points of the prev.
Anyway he's the top group, be interested to hear your thoughts.

100	H.Upmann	Perla Pre Rev	Perla	4	40	10	10	10	10	10
99	Bolivar	Coronas Extra '70's	Corona	5 7/8	44	9.5	10	10	10	10
98	Montecristo	No 5 1970's!	Tres P. Corona	4	40	9	10	10	10	10
97	Montecristo	DC Ltd Ed 2001	Prominete	7 5/8	49	9	9.5	10	10	10
97	Partagas	No2 10X Anniversary	Piramide	6 1/8	52	9.5	9.5	9.5	10	10
97	Ramon Allones	Ideales de Ramon Pre Emb	Panatela	6 1/4	36	8.5	10	10	10	10
96	Bolivar	Double Coronas '07	Prominete	7 5/8	49	9.5	9.5	9	10	10
96	Cohiba	Reserva	Media Coronas	5 6/8	38	10	10	9.5	9	9.5
96	Montecristo	'A'	Grand Coronas	9 1/4	47	10	9.5	9	9.5	10
96	Partagas	SeriesD No 1 LE04	Robusto Extra	6 3/4	50	10	10	9	9	10
96	Ramon Allones	Petit Corona	Marvela	5	42	9.5	10	9	10	9.5
95	Cohiba	DC Ltd Ed 2003	Prominete	7 5/8	49	9.5	9	9.5	10	9.5
95	Cohiba	Sublimes	Sublimes	6 1/2	54	10	10	9.5	9	9
95	Henry Clay	Corona Pre Embargo	Cremas	5 1/2	40	8.5	10	9	10	10
95	H.Upmann	Aromaticos No2 '80's	Mareva	5	42	9	9.5	9.5	10	9.5
95	Ramon Allones	Gigantes 12/05	Prominete	7 5/8	49	9	10	9	10	9.5
95	Vegas Robina	Robusto X Farm Custom	Gorditos	5 1/2	52	10	9	9	10	9.5
94	Bolivar	109	109	7 1/4	50	10	9	9.5	9	9.5
94	Cohiba	Ltd Ed 2006	Piramide	6 1/8	52	10	9.5	9	9	9.5
94	Conde' Custom	Solomones	Solomones	7	57	9	9.5	9	10	9.5
94	Hoyo d Monterrey	Epicure Especial	2004 Ltd Edition	5 1/2	50	10	9.5	9	9	9.5
94	Partagas	Lusitania	Prominete	7 5/8	49	9	9	9.5	10	9.5
93	Bolivar	Immensas 2005	Cervantes	6 5/8	43	9	9.5	9.5	9	9.5
93	Cohiba	Behike 52	Lagutio No4	4 5/8	52	10	9	9	9	9.5
93	Conde' Custom	Double Corona	Prominete	9	47	9	9.5	9	10	9
93	Romeo y Julieta	Church' Tubed '98 only	Julieta No2	7	47	9	9.5	9	9	9.5
92	Bolivar	BBF Gerrards	Campana	5 1/2	52	9.5	9.5	9	9	9
92	Cuaba	Piramides 2008	Piramide	6 1/8	52	9.5	9	9	9	9.5
92	Cuaba	Diamedas	Diamedeas	9 1/8	55	10	9	8.5	9.5	9
92	Flor de Farach	Farachchitos Pre-Emb.	Cigarillo	4 1/8	29	7	10	9	10	10
92	Hoyo d Monterrey	LE 2003	Piramide	6 1/8	52	9.5	9	9	9	9.5
92	Montecristo	C' Ltd Ed 2003	Grand Corona	5 5/8	46	9	9	9.5	9	9.5
92	Montecristo	No 2	Piramide	6 1/8	52	9	9	9.5	10	9
92	Montecristo	Robusto EL 2000	Robsuto	4 7/8	50	9.5	9.5	9	8	9.5
92	Ramon Allones	Spainish EL	Prominete	7 1/8	49	9	9	9.5	9	9.5
92	Vegas Robina	Don Alejandro	Prominete	7 5/8	49	9	9	9.5	9	9.5
92	Vega Robina	Petit Unicos	Petit Belicosis	4 7/8	52	9.5	9.5	9	9	9
92	Bolivar	Robusto X Be RE	Gorditos	5 1/5	50	9	9	9.5	9	9.5
91	Bolivar	Gold Medal	Cervantes	6 1/2	42	9.5	9	9	9	9
91	Cohiba	Esplendosis	Julieta No2	7	47	10	8.5	9.5	8	9.5
92	Cohiba	Siglo VI	Canonazo	5 7/8	52	9.5	9	9.5	8.5	9.5
91	Conde' Custom	Petit Magnifico	Petit Magnifico	6	56	9.5	8.5	8.5	10	9
91	Partagas	Piramides LE 2001	Piramide	6 1/8	52	9.5	8.5	9.5	9	9
91	Romeo y Julieta	Petit Corona '70s	Marvela	5	42	8	9	9.5	10	9
90	Bolivar	Belicosis Finos	Campana	5 1/2	52	9	9	9	9	9
90	Bolivar	Corona Gigantes	Julieta No2	7	47	9	9	9	9	9
90	Cohiba	Lancerous 10/00	Laguito No1	7 1/2	38	9	9	9.5	8.5	9
90	Cohiba	Siglo V	Dalia	6 3/4	43	10	9	9	8	9
90	Custom Behike	Behike 56	Laguito No 6	6 1/2	56	9	8.5	8.5	10	9
90	H.Upmann	Magmum 50	Dble Robusto	6 3/8	50	9	9	9	9	9
90	Montecristo	Robusto Extra 2006	Gorditos	5 1/5	50	9	9.5	8.5	9	9
90	Montecristo	Sel.Robusto 2003	Robusto	4 7/8	50	9	8.5	9	9	9.5
90	Partagas	Series D No3 2006	Grand Corona	5 5/8	46	9	9	9	9	9
90	Partagas	Salomones'10	Perfecto	7 1/4	57	9	9	8.5	9.5	9
90	Por Larranaga	Petit Corona	Mareva	5	42	9	9.5	9	8.5	9
90	Punch	Double Coronas	Prominete	7 5/8	49	9	9	9	9	9
90	Punch	Monarchas (T)	Julieta No2	7	47	9	9	9	9	9
90	Ramon Allones	AsianLtd Ed Churchill	Julieta No2	7	47	9	9	9	9	9
90	Ramon Allones	Belicosis 2005	Campana	5 1/2	52	9	9.5	9	8.5	9
90	Ramon Allones	Petit Unicos				9	9	9	9	9
90	Romeo y Julieta	Petit Pir. LE 2005	Petit Piramide	5 1/2	52	9	9	9	9	9
90	Romeo y Julieta	Petit Prince '70's	Perlas	4	40	8.5	9	9	9	9.5
90	Trinidad	Short Robusto T	Short Del Valle	4	50	9	9	9.5	8.5	9
90	Vegas Robina	Maestros	Gorditos	5 5/8	1	9	9	9	9	9

[tippexx]

Some points are given for irrelevancies Joey. Appearance and Price Point I ignore, and haven't a clue what Elegance is.

Appearance is like awarding a goal to Real Madrid on how well they looked in Adidas before kick-off. And Price Point is like deducting it again because Christiano Ronaldo had a mare and played like he wasn't worth a carrot. Elegance in that context might mean than no one fell over and got their shirt dirty.

[tippexx]

[QUOTE=Simon Bolivar;316586]Hi Matt, Please stick with this group!

Si, I know how diligent you are with your ratings, and I really rate your opinions.

But, and with due respect, do you think our Newbee has a snowballs chance of finding something even like 10% of the vitola you've just listed!

[Seegarnub]

They can't, but would like to believe they can and have you believe they can too. Most couldn't tell the difference between two ends of the same cigar let alone the difference between a hundred or so vitola.

All that really matters is that you enjoy the cigar you're smoking and that you felt the price was fair. If you didn't, don't buy one again. Trying a new cigar is always a bit of a lottery, some so-called highly rated I've not liked, some more humble I've thought were excellent. The 'points' if you like are the result of an interaction between your nose and your brain, there yours and they're unique and it is only with those tools that you can make an opinion, don't worry about anyone else, only yours counts. The downside of course is it's much less risky to try cigars which cost ten quid as opposed to UK expensive Padrons.

Points well made and following on from what you've said, the most important thing to remember is that our own personal tastes can differ so much. So a certain cigar might be one person's favourite and only average to someone else. In my opinion, the only true way to decide, like most things in life, is to try it yourself.[emoji2]


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[ValeTudoGuy]

I think theres a serious misunderstanding of the 100 point system here. Its not actually 100 points and never has been. Its rounded up to a scale of 100 due to the way it appeals to the human mind.

A 100 point system is really just a 5 star system where a star represents an aspect your reviewing and is given a scale of 10. The 50 possible points have 50 added to make them relevant to 100 as it was decided the figures look more round and "scalable".

Most review sites "not just cigars" consider anything under a score of 80 to be more or less unconsumeable so dont often publish the results.

The reason that most cigars get reletively similar scores is that on a scale of 10 when your disregarding half of the things your likely to review if they arent up to scratch how different can two cigars really be scored on appearence? Realistically most reasonable cigars will get between 8-10.

Same for the other points of review. What you end up with is a figure thats scewed by personal opinion and points for physical atributes that may not even be subjective to the nature of the enjoyment of a stick.

I still stand by my hybrid .5 system.

[PeeJay]

The simplest rating system Matt is to smoke one and decide did I like it? Would I smoke it again? Was it so good that I'm going to buy a box?
As has been pointed out, smoking is a very personal experience and everyone's else's experience is largely irrelevant. As for NCs, I've probably smoked a few more than you and you can disregard most American reviews because they're largely sponsored and their idea of what constitutes a mild/medium/strong cigar seems to be different to ours.

[TonyN]

Agree with you there peejay that's what I would do.
Life is too short to start rating cigars.

[jerryr]

I am a relative newbie to this site, but has been smoking cigars on and off for the last 20 years. I find most scores you read in the reviews to be difficult to differentiate, although the reviews themselves can be quite informative, if you read between the lines. People’s comments about a cigar or brand you’re interested in on sites such as UKCF are very helpful too. My approach to cigars is similar to that of wine or alcohol. If I try something new and I like it I’ll buy more, if i still like it i'll buy a box. Within reason, cost is irrelevant as are other people’s opinions, taste is totally subjective; some people like Liebfraumilch others prefer Chablis, I know my taste is at the dryer end of the scale. The most important thing when exploring this hobby is to try a wide verity and form your own opinions and most importantly smoke what you enjoy.

[sheppsea]

I think theres a serious misunderstanding of the 100 point system here. Its not actually 100 points and never has been. Its rounded up to a scale of 100 due to the way it appeals to the human mind.

I'm pretty sure most cigar reviews don't round it up, I haven't looked into it too much but most I have seen tend to break the score down into smaller chunks (for example, /35 to to flavour, /25 to appearance etc.) which combined make 100, but even down to that I can't see how you would say cigar A deserves 23/35 for flavour, and cigar B deserves 24/35

But I agree that the (and any) system is skewed and has its faults, and also agree with the general consensus that it is all down to personal taste so should be taken with a pinch of salt

[Simon Bolivar]

Hi Arf, Thanks for your comments on my my opinions & I respect yours as well (which of course also means we don't necessarily agree on every example either) so I apologise if that's how it came across. I was firstly encouraging Matt in his endevours, secondly showing him a particular method of scoring cigars, whilst highlighting this is a very personal opinion. I never said these are the cigars he should be looking for, just showing not every system leaves the sort of bunching at 93 points that he mentioned. However I can count 17 on that list that are still available & of course when I first joined the old club I would never have thought I get to smoke some of the rare & aged cigars I list at the top of my list but through membership of that club & this one I aquired 95% of those shown so it could be considered something to aspire too as well!

[Matt Wall]

Thank you all for the very interesting feedback, lots to take in there; really appreciate it. Also I'm glad that a lot of you enjoy my company on here, I find it a great forum and there's no way I'll be leaving as there's some very nice people on here and between you all you must have at least 500 years smoking experience which is something you can't buy, plus it's all unbiased which is a great thing to know. Keep up the good work guys!

In regards to the scoring system, I'm glad a lot of people agree with me as it is something I find a bit annoying. Of course there's people out there with the opinion that you have to experience it yourself to know whether you like it or not and at the end of the day it does come down to that so I know exactly what you mean. However if like me you are buying 3 or 4 sticks at a time and are basically broke thanks to your new hobby then ratings are very important. I'm not going to go out and buy a cigar that 90% of people are saying is a pure powerhouse and will knock your socks off if I don't like Nicotine so I do use it a lot as a good guide but I don't live by what all reviews say, I just find them helpful.

Onto Simon Bolivar's system (sorry I don't know his proper name, that is unless by some weird coincidence he is actually Mr Bolivar himself ), but I think that his system is the way I think it should work. His top 10 cigars range from a perfect 100 to 96, so already within 10 sticks there is a larger range than Cigar Aficionado would deal out, I think this is what's needed.
I can Tippexx's point about the price of Simon's top 10 but that's what I was looking for, if I do find one of those cigars by some miracle then I want to know it's definitely a 98 cigar, not just a 98 cigar according to Cigar Aficionado's ratings where there's 20 other 98 cigars out there. If I do one day buy one then I want to know that a Pre-Rev Upmann Perla is going to be bliss and not just another labelled high 90's cigar.
This means most of us would be smoking around 75/85 point cigars regularly and when we want a real quality stick we reach for a cigar that we know is 93, not just another 92/93/94 cigar that we think it-should-be-okay-but-I-will-keep-my-fingers-crossed type cigar, if you catch my drift

To many people this may seem a pointless rant, particular those that already know what they like etc but considering that a whole magazine and industry is based on "how many points the cigar of the year has got" I really do think that it needs to shaken up. Take the Oliva Melanio Figurado Maduro, the 2015 cigar of the year; is it really a very high 90's cigar?? Compared to the exclusive cigars that Simon has just listed? I've smoked the brother to that cigar and it was lovely but I can already think of a few flaws without properly looking into it, and yet with that CA 97 point stamp on it I wonder how many more sticks Oliva have sold this year...

Anyway my reply has gone on forever and a day as usual, I'm just passionate about it all I think. I spent 30 minutes in a tiny walk-in humidor in Robert Graham's shop in Cambridge today chatting to the shop assistant about cigars; I bet he wanted to shoot himself after I'd finished chatting about the new Monte Media Corona, hahaha

Thanks for the interest and I look forward to seeing what people think.
Cheers,
Matt


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