Sorting Sideburn without assistance

[TJCoro]

That's So Strange!

Coolerdor with beads at the bottom. I did test with a hygro top and bottom.

[EDIT] It has improved with an Oust fan, but it just happens slower. I think it's too full really (reduced airflow) so I'm transplanting the whole lot to a larger box in the next few days.

That is odd, humidity is heaver than dryer air, so it shouldn't concentrate at the top, especially since the beads are at the bottom!!!



BJ, BJCoro

[daverave999]

That is odd, humidity is heaver than dryer air, so it shouldn't concentrate at the top, especially since the beads are at the bottom!!!



BJ, BJCoro

Wikipedia says otherwise, but I'm just reporting my experiences!

[MaledettoToscano]

>

Senor BJ, Dave is right about humidity raising to the top .

While it is true that humid air is heavier than dry air you need a substantial difference in humidity and hence in how dense or heavy the air is to see such an effect. In an enclosed environment, such as a humidor, the humidity varies only slightly. Still if that was the only thing in play you'd be right and humid air would go to the bottom.

Yet there is a stronger effect that comes into play. What happens in a closed container such as a humidor is that the way humidity moves is driven mainly by temperature, and since warmer air goes to the top, so does humidity with it. (also warm air can hold more humidity than cold air). Inside a humi the temperature difference is probably small but enough to create more humidity on the top. If you look at the same effect in larger enclosed rooms the effect can be quite dramatic. For example some say that NASA's VAB (vehicle assembly building) is so large (see here) that clouds can form inside it (maybe our Rokkitsci... entist can confirm), and again, that's because hot humid air moves to the top, than condenses into clouds moving down.

>

[daverave999]

I'd not considered convection would come into play. Wouldn't the warmer air have a lower relative humidity though, as its higher temperature would mean the overall moisture capacity (not sure of the correct term here) would be greater?

[SeanP]

Humidity is not a "thing" it's a ratio. Water vapor is a thing and air is a thing and humidity is a measure of the first in relation to the second which is all dependent on temperature. So humidity does not spacially travel up nor down. But water vapor does.

Water vapor is lighter then air and naturally rises (That's how clouds stay in the sky). So your humidor will theoretically have more water vapor at the top then at the bottom. This will be negligible since most humi's have uniform temperatures and should not be reaching the dew point.

Those of you who have checked the RH in the top and bottom of your humi and found different readings are in fact just comparing standard deviations of your two hygrometers. Most hygrometers that people have are good for ?4-5% maybe even 6% RH. Now, if you get a higher end laboratory grade hygro for a meer ?100-?200 you can get that down to the ?3% range. Up it to a ?400+ model and you are now in the ?1.5% RH resolution range. Good, but still not good enough to be comparing a relativly small mixed volume of air at moderate temperatures.

[daverave999]

Humidity is not a "thing" it's a ratio. Water vapor is a thing and air is a thing and humidity is a measure of the first in relation to the second which is all dependent on temperature. So humidity does not spacially travel up nor down. But water vapor does.

Water vapor is lighter then air and naturally rises (That's how clouds stay in the sky). So your humidor will theoretically have more water vapor at the top then at the bottom. This will be negligible since most humi's have uniform temperatures and should not be reaching the dew point.

Those of you who have checked the RH in the top and bottom of your humi and found different readings are in fact just comparing standard deviations of your two hygrometers. Most hygrometers that people have are good for ?4-5% maybe even 6% RH. Now, if you get a higher end laboratory grade hygro for a meer ?100-?200 you can get that down to the ?3% range. Up it to a ?400+ model and you are now in the ?1.5% RH resolution range. Good, but still not good enough to be comparing a relativly small mixed volume of air at moderate temperatures.

I disagree with most of that.

All I'm saying is that my cigars are definitely getting more moisture in the top of my cooler than in the bottom. It's why people put Oust fans in...

[MaledettoToscano]

Sean,

you're absolutely right about humidity, I was trying to remain simple in my explanation.

Personally I am not convinced the standard deviation thing either, not because I don't see the point you make (I have used and still use enough scientific instruments to know how often this can happen), but because of direct experience.

Last week I got two new digital hygrometers. Because I couldn't be bothered to do a salt test, I placed them in the humidor with my previously salt test "calibrated" digital hygrometer. One was placed close to the said "old" hygrometer at the bottom of the humi and the other at the top because of space issues. The one at the top read 3% more than the one at the bottom, which was giving the same value as the old one.

Up to there it could have just been an issue of calibration or standard deviation, but just to be sure I switched them around and waited 3-4 hours... the one that read 3% more at the top, was now reading 2% less once at the bottom ( so 1% more than the "old" hygrometer, showing the calibration of the two was not identical) and the one now at the top was reading 2% more.

Still unconvinced, I decided to move my "old" one to the top of the humi and after a few hours the value on the top was again 2% higher than what the other two hygrometers read at the bottom.

Maybe my explanation in the previous post does not stand up completely, but the empiric evidence tells me the top is more humid than the bottom... when it comes to humidors at least .

[daverave999]

Sorry, I'll stop being facetious now. I also did the swapping the hygros trick and the difference between the top and the bottom remained the same.

I have no evidence for this, but I believe the effect is accentuated in my case due to my coolbox being very full with little room for airflow ie. density differences between air and water vapour having more effect than diffusion or convection.

[MaledettoToscano]

I have no evidence for this, but I believe the effect is accentuated in my case due to my coolbox being very full with little room for airflow ie. density differences between air and water vapour having more effect than diffusion or convection.

Now that you mention it, same here. The Humidor I observed the humidity difference in is full to the brim.

[SeanP]

I guess I assumed you were not stuffing your coolers full of cigars

[MaledettoToscano]

I guess I assumed you were not stuffing your coolers full of cigars

You know how it is... there's never enough space for cigars

[cj121]

I've found if I want to kick my sideburns

...these help enormously

[TJCoro]

I believe in Magic!

INTRODUCTION:

I respect all the fine science that has been tossed about in the above posts, but when it comes to humidors, I generally go with personal experience, rather than what the science says should or should not happen. But that's just me!

DISCUSSION:

I have owned several cabinet humidors, the current being just over 4 feet tall. I tend to keep the humidity between 67 to 70% and the temperature around 19 to 21 degrees C (66 to 70 F). In all my cabinets, the humidity always settles to the bottom where it varies by as much as 2% from the humidity level on the top. I regularly calibrate my digital hygrometers and the readings were the same even after switching the the hygrometers - 2% higher on the bottom.

CONCLUSION:

Perhaps humidity reacts differently this side of the Atlantic (or in Mexico), sort of like the way water spins down the drain differently in the northern and southern hemispheres.

BJ, BJCoro

[cj121]

Wise words senor, wise words

Nice piece there,but sadly no referencing, so I'm going to have to mark you down for that.

However, overall, some good reflective material in and therefore I'm awarding you somewhere between 67 and 70%. Well done

[TJCoro]

No Reference Needed!

Wise words senor, wise words

Nice piece there,but sadly no referencing, so I'm going to have to mark you down for that.

However, overall, some good reflective material in and therefore I'm awarding you somewhere between 67 and 70%. Well done

Thanks for the respectable rating, senor CJ, but riddle me this - how do you reference "personal experience?"

By the way, I showed the fine science mentioned here to TJ and his magical humidor, but he would have none of it!

He reminded me that his 'dor was made in another world (Australia, I believe) where the laws of physics do not apply, apparently


BJ, BJCoro



Hmmm, I thought he found it in the second attention.

I heard it was Ixtlan


(Hurumph!) No doubt, he found it up you ass, you idiots!


I'm gonna' make one with me balls!


Mmmmm! Senor ...lovin' the sideburns!