Would it be morally incorrect .... for the

[Wigan]

I think the moral question depends on where they came from. If they came from a fairly safe environment and just came for a chance for wealth then I think it's necessary to send them back. If they came from a war ridden zone in Africa or were threatened for their lives in another way, I think it's hard to justify to send them back to their 'fate'. I always found it highly immoral as well that Switzerland wouldn't take up Jews from Germany back in the days. The same principle applies here as well.

THIS country wouldn't take Jews from Germany. The axis were offered the chance at a job lot of them we turned em down in case, and get this, Hitler was being genuine. Figured we couldn't support them and he might just send more so they were left to their "fate".

Ok it was a calculated plot by Hitler to try and sow dissent but just saying

[tippexx]

Actually we did Wigan and our record by Jewish accounts wasn't that bad.

Britain did permit the entry of Jewish groups, for example the Kindertransporte, this came under the heading of precedent. Britain was not a country of immigration or the first choice destination for German Jews, the USA was. Britain was a stepping-stone for refugees admitted on a temporary basis, pending their re-emigration to a country of permanent settlement. But many opted to stay, and Jewish families of German origin are still here today. They weren't treated particularly well sometimes, not because they were Jews but because they were German.

[Niela]

THIS country wouldn't take Jews from Germany.

Really? I wasn't aware of that. But I am sure that in hindsight we would all agree that it was wrong not to take up those refugees? I don't see a difference between a person in a concentration camp and one butchered by some local militia.

[tippexx]

Ok it was a calculated plot by Hitler to try and sow dissent but just saying

Anti-Jewish attitude were only a small part of what was going on at the time. A fair section of our 'Establishment' would have happily sold out to Hitler altogether if it meant they could hang onto their wealth and privileges.

[Niela]

They weren't treated particularly well sometimes, not because they were Jews but because they were German.

This made me laugh... Isn't it funny how we always look for something in others to differentiate ourselves from? I mean a person is a person. Faith, skin color, nationality, haircut, sexual orientation or whatever doesn't make any difference does it? Yet we always find something to categorize groups of people and then polarize. Thus conflict evolves...

I wrote in another thread that I never got the appeal of nationalism. And it is for that reason. I am German and I like living in the UK, but I would never dream of thinking that one or the other homes a better kind of people. I also never felt particularly proud of being a German either. Sure, we built the best cars, play the best football and brew the best beer. But I myself have never built a car. I suck at football and while I like drinking beer, I never attempted to brew one either. So what is there to be proud of? What makes me different to a British born person or one born in Somalia? The only difference is that I got lucky to be born in a rich and wealthy country with privileges while the Somali got unlucky to be born somewhere else.

Why then should we gather together and feel proud to be lucky?

[tippexx]

OK. I took a short-cut. The were interned and held for a long time (not in awful or prison conditions) while they could be screened and authenticated as being genuinely Jewish and not German agents.

[PeeJay]

Why then should we gather together and feel proud to be lucky?

Why should we not? We wouldn't be talking on this forum but for the accident of our birth. Should we be ashamed of our national heritage? We gave the world our language after all. Are you ashamed of the war Niela? You shouldn't be, you weren't there, on the contrary you should be proud of what Germany has achieved since your birth. Neither am I ashamed of some of the things our ancestors got up to. Why we in this country need to be proud of being English is because our 'leaders' don't give a shit and are letting our national identity be washed away. And yes I am anti the EC but love the Germans, I actually lived in Gutersloh as a child.

[tippexx]

Our leaders only make appeals to our national identity when they want something from us.

[Wigan]

Nah guys there was big plot not your average refugees. I have a vague memory of a train with a million jews on it. Hitler knew we couldn't support them and something about people turning on us because we said no just keep it heading towards Poland. Think there might have been a bomb on the train that armed when it went over 60 miles and hour but not sure. Need to do more research. I am on nights and just woke up. Will check back later

[Niela]

Why should we not? We wouldn't be talking on this forum but for the accident of our birth. Should we be ashamed of our national heritage? We gave the world our language after all. Are you ashamed of the war Niela? You shouldn't be, you weren't there, on the contrary you should be proud of what Germany has achieved since your birth. Neither am I ashamed of some of the things our ancestors got up to. Why we in this country need to be proud of being English is because our 'leaders' don't give a shit and are letting our national identity be washed away. And yes I am anti the EC but love the Germans, I actually lived in Gutersloh as a child.

Well, I think it comes with history that Germans are hesitant to be proud of their heritage. We actually never won a singe war we fought. (and I am glad we didn't) So when you grow up reviewing the propaganda from back then and the atrocities committed in the spirit of nationalism and supremacy, you begin to question the whole concept. So when I see soldiers paraded around high streets, I immediately see Leni Riefenstahl movies infront of my inner eye, using the exact same propaganda.

I am happy to cheer for Germany when it comes to football and it is where I grew up so I will always have a fondness of it. And I do appreciate many of it's achievements, especially when something in my house breaks and I see another terrible job someone has done in the past fixing it .

On the other hand I am very fond of the UK as well and I appreciate many things over here jsut as well. I do feel at home here.

This is all fair an good and I have no problem with that at all. It is just a fine line to walk. Being proud/fond of the place you came from is one thing. Thinking that where you come from is making you better than other people because they came from another place is a different matter. As long as nationalism isn't leading to separation, exclusion and alienation, I have no problem with it at all.

Sadly groups like Britain First and the EDL take this concept and use it in the same way an antisemit or racist would. And I think that is what puts me off nationalism.

[tippexx]

Sadly groups like Britain First and the EDL take this concept and use it in the same way an antisemit or racist would. And I think that is what puts me off nationalism.

I think you over worry Niela. If you rounded them all up, I doubt they'd fill one quarter of a Conference League stadium. Dot Cotton would get more support than them!

[tippexx]

The thing that so often angers me is political correctness exercised for its own sake or as something to hide behind. Truth, if it is the truth, cannot be racist or bigoted, it can only be the truth, but too many people would rather resort to protective denial or smear than accept it.

[Niela]

I think you over worry Niela. If you rounded them all up, I doubt they'd fill one quarter of a Conference League stadium. Dot Cotton would get more support than them!

Maybe I do... again... German history taught me to be cautious.

I wonder if it wouldn't be possible to round them all up and give them some island off the Scottish coast where they can then create their little dreams all by themselves without bothering the rest of us?

[tippexx]

I wonder if it wouldn't be possible to round them all up and give them some island off the Scottish coast where they can then create their little dreams all by themselves without bothering the rest of us?

I doubt it, and certainly not without landing yourself in the European Court of Human Rights.

I don't think returning the boat people is harsh, in many ways it's kinder than the internment camps or some of the hopeless shanty towns that they've created for themselves in cities throughout Europe.

And, so what if Libya objects to their return, without 'leaky' Libyan compliance and knowledge they couldn't have left in the first place. That these people need help is unquestionable, but an ever open door isn't always help, because for many it will be a door to nowhere and ultimately a cause for resentment.