Europe - in or out?

[Niela]

Indeed Nils but equally it could have been the start of a third column sowing the seeds of fear in the population

Even more important not to be afraid then...

[ValeTudoGuy]

Is a third column just like a fifth column, but with a couple less participants?

[Maks]

Of course when news travels it is like Chinese whispers but as cigar smokers you should all know, there is no smoke without fire! [emoji992]


"Ah, if only I had brought a cigar with me! This would have established my identity.? ? Charles Dickens

[PeeJay]

Is a third column just like a fifth column, but with a couple less participants?

Damn you Durose! Right again.

[ValeTudoGuy]

But on a serious note. I think theres very good reason to be scared.

If groups of men are able to act in this way, its a serious matter. If those men are potentially only in your country at the grace of your good nature... Well they should be dealt with extremely harshly.

The day we cant protect vulnerable members of our society from such behaviour is a day we have seriously gone wrong.

Imagine, were this a group of english men in Turkey and it was Turkush women at risk?

We are a tribal species with too many differing ideas and oppinions of society within our own insular communities. Unmonitored mass movement of people is an awfully complex matter that has far foo much chance of going wrong IMO.

Integration to a common accepted and balenced existing culture is key and i can only see this happening by stringently controlled need based immigration policies, with a tendency towards expanding existing communities rather than allowing new satellite ones to emerge.

[PeeJay]

Damn you Durose! Right again.

And here's why:

Emilio Mola, a Nationalist General during the Spanish Civil War, told a journalist in 1936 that as his four columns of troops approached Madrid, a "fifth column" of supporters inside the city would support him and undermine the Republican government from within. The term was then widely used in Spain. Ernest Hemingway used it as the title of his only play, which he wrote in Madrid while the city was being bombarded, and published in 1938 in his book The Fifth Column and the First Forty-Nine Stories

[tippexx]

IN or OUT what difference will it make to us ordinary joes? Will wages be any higher or taxes any less. Will getting a house or finding fulfilling employment become any easier .... I doubt it. And, are we likely to experience a Britannic Renaissance or even be told the truth about anything. No.

Before anyone goes running off to do an OUTER, take a good look at the OUT promoters and the people behind them and then ask yourself; What's in it for them that I'm going to see none of, and would I trust any of the bunch not to sell the country down the river if there's money in it for them?

The EU isn't great or likely to be enduring. It's a failing experiment built on 'puff and hot air' which sooner or later must sink under the weight of it's own regulation and cost. So rather than a Referendum patience might have been the better policy?

[Niela]

But on a serious note. I think theres very good reason to be scared.

There always are, but fear is rarely a good guide for actions or policies. I prefer our politicians to act from a level headed rationale rather than a fear based panic.

If groups of men are able to act in this way, its a serious matter.

Absolutely. That's why I don't like things like those bikini girls serving drinks at the OZ cigar party. We should take sexism very serious and any men that don't get the message should be punished. Right now you get more years in jail for not paying taxes than you do for raping a woman.

If those men are potentially only in your country at the grace of your good nature... Well they should be dealt with extremely harshly.

Our laws should handle everybody the same. No matter who they are or where they come from. If someone molests a woman I frankly don't give a shit where they come from.

The day we cant protect vulnerable members of our society from such behaviour is a day we have seriously gone wrong.

These things have happened since the existence of the human race. I think today we just hear more about it because we are more sensitive to these matters as we were in the 50s or earlier.

Imagine, were this a group of english men in Turkey and it was Turkush women at risk?

I would imagine some people jumping at it and trying to spin that English people are somewhat less civilized and of questionable morality compared to the noble Turkish men. Others will say that it was a bunch of idiots as you find them anywhere and they should get punished like everybody else.

We are a tribal species with too many differing ideas and oppinions of society within our own insular communities. Unmonitored mass movement of people is an awfully complex matter that has far foo much chance of going wrong IMO.

Integration to a common accepted and balenced existing culture is key and i can only see this happening by stringently controlled need based immigration policies, with a tendency towards expanding existing communities rather than allowing new satellite ones to emerge.

Well, migration is well monitored to the most part. We do know who comes in and who goes out. As for insular communities. You can't even find a consensus of all inhabitants of one village. Or simply look at our discussion here. People have different values, different believes and opinions. I don't see a problem with that. If my neighbour wants to cover hear head because she wants to live like a nun, that doens't make a difference to me.

Upholding the law is not a matter of migration, it's a matter of the law. And of course, everybody from here or from somewhere else has to obide it.

BTW. In Germany there has been and still is much talk about the refugees being more criminal and raping our women and so on. Similar to the conclusions you have drawn from the chinese whispers you've heard. The police released statistics about various crimes and so far the refugees commit just slightly less crimes than the local population. Why is that? Because refugees have the same nice guy/bastard ratio than any other population in the world.

[PeeJay]

I
The EU isn't great or likely to be enduring. It's a failing experiment built on 'puff and hot air' which sooner or later must sink under the weight of it's own regulation and cost. So rather than a Referendum patience might have been the better policy?

So not better to leave the ship before it sinks then?

[PeeJay]

This has certainly sparked some good debate though

[Maks]

And you believe statistics handed out by Merkel and her cronies do you? If you want to be fed their left wing statistics that's fine, if your right we will all the happier and the world will be a better place where everyone lives in peace with all races and religions living side by side, but if your wrong the consequences will be dire and there will be nothing anyone can do about it. Choose wisely when the referendum comes around.


"Ah, if only I had brought a cigar with me! This would have established my identity.? ? Charles Dickens

[tippexx]

So not better to leave the ship before it sinks then?

Leaving might sink the ship anyway .... but being IN the ship when it sinks naturally would at least absolve us from blame and resentment. A natural death of the EU would give everyone a fresh start and a chance to learn from past mistakes .... or at least the hope that politicians might have learned from their mistakes. (if you can ever get one to admit to having made one!).

[ValeTudoGuy]

[MENTION=13432411]Niela[/MENTION] i dont disagree with many off your points and I think you quite eloquently adress some of mine.

However where i do disagree is firstly the matter of monitoring migration, especily in very recent times. I think its an area that we won't understand the true gravity of who and in what number is where for potentially a long time.

Also on the matter of crime recarding. In a previous life I workedfor an organisation that was measured on crime recording.... It's amazing how drastically figures end up changing depending of what is or isnt being targeted by the powers that be. It would also appear that in this recent Cologne incident, very little action has been taken by the Police.... The BBC go on record as claiming not a single arrest has been made.

So were we to trust statistics on this matter, the question would be what's all the fuss about?

But listening to Radio 2 who have had numerous Cologne residents ring in and tell their story. Well it paints a rather harrowing picture of what has been allowed to happen.

Im all for humanist values. But frankly the cost of getting this matter wrong is too high, so if keeping my daughter, wife, sisters and mother in the relitive safety they enjoy now means slapping restrictions and hoops to jump through on an unknown elements who may or may not be beneficial to our society..... So be it in my book.

[Emaresee]

I do wonder on one point... the cost of being in Europe is variously and inconsistently bandied about. What I don't see is the cost savings of not being 'in'.... The two are unlikely to match.

I am rather old fashioned in my approach... cost benefit led... so while multi-billion costs of Europe going to Brussels make for dramatic headlines, the inbound return funds from of EU grants, allowances etc is not immediately obvious. What do we gain and lose in exiting. Give me those stats and my vote follows sense... where are we better off - that's where I will want to be. As a project Europe was never meant to be preserved in aspic. If it were, there would not be mechanisms for countries to exit, or join. So member states being in and out ought to be an accepted part of evolution.

as it goes I think we ought to wholly commit to a renegotiation of terms... and find a more advantageous compromise. BUT it doesn't seem likely. So I suspect we will come out.

However, I cant quite get past the old adage of "better to be in the tent p*ssing out, rather than outside of the tent p*ssing in" .... leaves me feeling rather nervy.

[PeeJay]

However, I cant quite get past the old adage of "better to be in the tent p*ssing out, rather than outside of the tent p*ssing in" .... leaves me feeling rather nervy.

When you're in the tent there's nowhere to run!