Angry is not the word...

[nicwing]

This was a discussion about quality of cigars & service.

As I said a while ago (to some 'interesting' feedback) if this is a discussion about a UK supplier then OK, if not then it's going nowhere.

The relevant rule is Only UK sources, with applicably applied UK tax and duty, of cigars may be discussed.

We now have a difficult situation. There is concern from some about naming the source.

On this basis I am going to close this thread. If anyone want to know who the retailer is/was I suggest they PM Smokinge_2011

[Drewmidorn]

Just discussing something illegal in no way incriminates anyone. It's been quite a few decades since authorities in this country started to base prosecution on hard evidence. Discussion of non-UK suppliers may simply be for holiday reasons, or even as gifts for people you know who live out there perhaps. I myself have started a thread asking about suppliers in countries i was to visit on holiday.

Which actually works for my point.

There is no problem with discussing foreign suppliers if the intention is to travel abroad and bring back tobacco products that are within your legal limits. (From the EU this is limited to any amount for personal use, outside the EU this is limited to 50 cigars) I travel a great deal and sometimes post about good shops in different countries.

The problem arises with sharing information about non uk based mail order companies that deliver to the uk. Ordering tobacco products from abroad is perfectly legal as long as you arrange to pay the import duty and all taxes. The onus to do this is on you.

[Puff Scotty]

It's got boring now!

Shit service..Name & Shame..Job Done...

all the rest is bo**ux, we don't have any problems from saying how wonderful some of the retailers are (and naming them) so we should be allowed to say if they're crap..it's actually doing Her Maj's tax people a favour if we say "illegitimate sources are crap" & I'm pretty sure nobody will notice one little heads up amongst all the the condemnation we do on non-legit sources.....IMHO..& I'm always right...

[Funkilee]

Yeah we do have massive taxes which in part are squandered but the government. BUT don't forget that the NHS is the worlds 2nd biggest employer (1st being the Chinese army). And although its not ideal is is free at the point of delivery and some of the treatments that we or out loved ones need are getting bloody expensive.

You're totally right, i have no issues with paying taxes, i just wish we would get back to nationalising our industries to the continued benefit of the poor, the gap between the haves and have nots is growing and with the increase of 'privatisation' there is a complete conflict of interests between keeping the shareholders happy and looking after the interests of the common man! Lets see what happens with the NHS which is already in a shocking state of affairs!

Next step, the corporately run police!

[Nightwingvyse]

Really? Do you really believe that?

The question was entirely rhetorical. I can't believe how seriously you took it. I should've used a sarcastrophe or something.

You may not be aware but this board used to freely discuss any suppliers and be sponsored by one everyone knows. We then (after a short while and some legal council) realised the severe potential criminal liabilities if HMRC chooses to interpret such behaviour as conspiracy to evade taxes. With that in mind we changed our rules (as IMHO any sane person would).

With this in mind is it any wonder that there is almost none (of the dozens I have seen) of public cigar forums that openly discuss duty free purchasing of tobacco products.

Just discussing something illegal in no way incriminates anyone. It's been quite a few decades since authorities in this country started to base prosecution on hard evidence. Discussion of non-UK suppliers may simply be for holiday reasons, or even as gifts for people you know who live out there perhaps. I myself have started a thread asking about suppliers in countries i was to visit on holiday.

So we would represent just over 1% of their sales with those assumptions. Assuming a ?24M PA business can do their sums it is hard to imagine we are even on their radar?

Which actually works for my point.

[Eddie]

Yeah we do have massive taxes which in part are squandered but the government. BUT don't forget that the NHS is the worlds 2nd biggest employer (1st being the Chinese army). And although its not ideal is is free at the point of delivery and some of the treatments that we or out loved ones need are getting bloody expensive.

[monkey66]

I meant aside from a person's choice to use them or not.

My point was, why is there censorship on this? Do UK suppliers run this board or something?

Really? Do you really believe that? You may not be aware but this board used to freely discuss any suppliers and be sponsored by one everyone knows. We then (after a short while and some legal council) realised the severe potential criminal liabilities if HMRC chooses to interpret such behaviour as conspiracy to evade taxes. With that in mind we changed our rules (as IMHO any sane person would).

It is fair to say that the risk is fairly low but unfortunately very real. The consequences of an aggressive HMRC prosecution are enough to ruin ones life. Consider your life if your house was raided at dawn, bank accounts were frozen, your computers, mobile phones and passport are confiscated and you need to manage your life, family and job with all of this going on. There have been cases of people committing suicide under the pressure of such investigations ...and later shown to be innocent.

We have seen a significant (publicised) increase in HMRC resource in combating tobacco smuggling. Now whilst this has been triggered by cigarette smuggling we (as a community) unfortunately fall under the same scrutiny.

So the risk is low but the threat is huge.

With this in mind is it any wonder that there is almost none (of the dozens I have seen) of public cigar forums that openly discuss duty free purchasing of tobacco products.

Another consideration (regarding your suggestion that this board is run by the UK cigar industry) is that we (the UK internet forum community) are a very small percentage of UK cigar sales. If we say that there are 300 active forum members in the UK and each one has an average spend of ?1000 PA we have ?300K. H and F's return at Companies House (I just looked it up) shows a turnover of just under ?24M for 2011 (just under ?22M for 2010). So we would represent just over 1% of their sales with those assumptions. Assuming a ?24M PA business can do their sums it is hard to imagine we are even on their radar?

The final point here is that for that for this conspiracy to be true myself, Deano and all of the mods would have to be corrupt liars, or gullible idiots. We are cigar enthusiasts with real lives, real families and real jobs ...not part of some master-plan.


With this overwhelming statement of reasons against such a theory being true (and in the absence of a single item of credible fact to the contrary) I trust there is no longer any doubt on this particular bit of malicious slander? I would even go so far as to say that any informed person (accepting not everyone is informed ...but hopefully are now) who continues to say such things should explain why they are intentionally lying (and most likely committing slander)?

[Funkilee]

Nope, but they're the rules! I personally think BOTL should rise up against the tyranny of the UK government having more than their fair share, lets have a demo outside Whitehall!

Supposed to be a big demo there on Nov 5th i hear!

[Nightwingvyse]

Don't quite get the , " Otherwise, knowledge of specific suppliers doesn't matter", otherwise what?

I meant aside from a person's choice to use them or not.

My point was, why is there censorship on this? Do UK suppliers run this board or something?

[Funkilee]

This is what i don't understand. It's not like non-UK suppliers hold the secret to the 911 conspiracy or anything. If someone learns of a supplier outside of the UK, it is their choice and their risk alone to use them or not. Otherwise, knowledge of specific suppliers doesn't matter.

Don't quite get the , " Otherwise, knowledge of specific suppliers doesn't matter", otherwise what?

initials do not mean mean anything and are not substantive in anyway, i.e. not being complicit in tax evasion in ones own admission!

[Nightwingvyse]

Hear hear old boy, how about just using initials, then at least that way those that know know and those that don't will just be like, yeah, whatever?

This is what i don't understand. It's not like non-UK suppliers hold the secret to the 911 conspiracy or anything. If someone learns of a supplier outside of the UK, it is their choice and their risk alone to use them or not. Otherwise, knowledge of specific suppliers doesn't matter.

[Funkilee]

It might be i do get out a lot more nowadays, a PM would be good just in case i should be passing aforementioned supplier and drop in

Hear hear old boy, how about just using initials, then at least that way those that know know and those that don't will just be like, yeah, whatever?

[JOAO LA PEZ]

Just to put everyone at ease, it's not a retailer or supplier any of you use, if you catch my drift....

It might be i do get out a lot more nowadays, a PM would be good just in case i should be passing aforementioned supplier and drop in

[Nightwingvyse]

Clear as mud. If it isn't a UK supplier there is no point continuing this thread. It's going nowhere.

Fucking xenophobe

[nicwing]

Clear as mud. If it isn't a UK supplier there is no point continuing this thread. It's going nowhere.